AHMAD !! What's going on in Al Mahallah al Kubra? Here the moment you turn on the TV news all you see is all kinds of violence in Egypt. Now they're saying it's spreading to Alexandria.
Since I believe maybe 20% (or less) of what the news media says, please give us your input.
to humbert: it seems that Ahmad's town is spared by the turmoil. Probably there is a mighty power in it, repelling the forces of evil.
Its difficult to say what will happen. I posted a lot of stuff about Egypt, in the topic you probably dislike, and I have a singular idea of the problem but let's think there can be a positive issue.
The problems in Egypt are mainly religious, and some christians of egypt, some copts, have even been killed recently, but these problems are aggravated by a situation of economic precarity due to the fall of tourism and the rise in oil prices.
A physical problem: The numbers of countries that would be required to face the need of their huge population - Egypt is part of the ecologically indebted countries.
(https://i.ibb.co/qM4Vkm1/Egypt2.jpg)
Sorry for being late, but I don't know what to say.. or from where to start ?!!
Yes, there is violence here in many cities, but in my city.. NO, just because people here don't let others to do any violence.
The story is ..
The man who is called Mursi and his party said that they carry good for us and he talked in the name of Islam goals to provide an excellent life for us, and he said that he will serve all of the Egyptians, not only his people... bla bla bla.
They are LIARS .. They know and talk very well about Islam, but they don't apply it. They say what you want to hear, but they do what they want. They don't listen except for themselves. They always believe they are right. They don't care about Egypt or the Egyptians, they care about their international formation and their own good.
Even Mursi was NOT the man who rules. His party was the controller and Mursi was just a tool in their hands.
I didn't trust many many news about them, but I'm sure now they are LIARS and this is a sign of hypocrisy. And ironically, they call their party "Muslim brothers"!!
The way they think is not in Islam. Islam has no extremist thoughts. They are fool people who don't use their brains to differentiate between good and evil. They just do what their leaders say.. Why ?!! Are their leaders prophets ?!!
All the violence here is because Mursi failed and people did a revolution against him for a better change and so, millions of people came out to end his period early without more waiting for other 3 years, and for that, his people protested first for about 45 days in 2 important squares in Cairo and after that, they discovered that their protest failed and so, their leaders provoked the direction of violence with the help of the other terrorist groups.
If they are Muslims better than us as they say, Allah says in The Holy Qur'an:
"When he turns his back, his aim everywhere is to spread mischief through the earth and destroy crops and progeny but Allah loveth not mischief.."
So, why not applying those words in the reality ?!!
They do all of this because they wanted only the power, NOT their other talk about applying Islam !!
Finally, from what I've seen and other 40 millions Egyptians who did the last revolution, our army is good and honest until now.
Those extremist people are the bad guys here even if the media says other than that.
And of course, when they use violence, the police and the army have to reply against them to stop them from burning or killing.
P.S.
My talk about the violence concerns the terrorist groups and the leaders and some of the Muslim brothers party NOT all the people of the party, because I know many of them are against those extremist thoughts.
Looks like someone wants to provoke a civil war :) and then another country would take a part in this war "to protect the people".
I'm reassured to see that Ahmad is not standing up for those djiadists. Unfortunately a lot of lost people are recruited, and they use their own interpretation of Islam to justify their crime. Perhaps you have heard of this guy who killed some soldiers in France: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p334WtjkAC0
Quote from: scarface on August 21, 2013, 12:10 PM
*** and they use their own interpretation of Islam to justify their crime.
This is exactly what I wanted to say, but couldn't find the proper words.
:)
These events are spectacular but on the scale of Egypt there has been perhaps 500 killed, it doesnt represent a lot of people (Each year Egypt has 2 million more inhabitants). Its a pity for the innocents who were there though.
You know what I think, the real problems are yet to come with the depletion of the main ressources. Recently New Zealand has renounced to reduce its carbon dioxide emissions and Ecuador has decided to exploit its oil in an ecological reserve. They are going to devastate a forest for 900 million barrels, only 10 days of world oil consumption. Today there is still no issue and there is little chance that we can find a new energy to replace oil, uranium and other non renewable commodities.
@Scarface - it's not that I don't "like" what you post. The only issue where our opinions differ is that I don't see the situation as apocalyptic as you do. Also, keep in mind that the simple fact that we might not agree on something doesn't mean we aren't friends. :)
Also for Scarface - before you upload pictures like the one you posted, do you resize it yourself or what? What other picture hosting places do you know other than imageshack and hostingpics?
Ahmad - I read your post but I'm not sure something. You keep repeating "they are liars.." etc - who exactly are THEY?? Do you refer to the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood or someone else? I want to be very clear about this before asking more questions.
I just heard on the TV news that your friend Hosni is out of jail.
Is your new avatar a picture of you?
I dont use other sites to upload pictures.
If you only watch tv, probably you can't agree with what I think. The current situation is not bad, but the probable future looks grim.
Quote from: humbert on August 22, 2013, 01:36 AM
Ahmad - I read your post but I'm not sure something. You keep repeating "they are liars.." etc - who exactly are THEY?? Do you refer to the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood or someone else? I want to be very clear about this before asking more questions.
YES, I mean the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood party when saying this:
Quote from: Ahmad on August 20, 2013, 03:07 AM
They are LIARS .. They know and talk very well about Islam, but they don't apply it. They say what you want to hear, but they do what they want. They don't listen except for themselves. They always believe they are right. They don't care about Egypt or the Egyptians, they care about their international formation and their own good.
Quote from: humbert on August 22, 2013, 01:36 AM
I just heard on the TV news that your friend Hosni is out of jail.
YES, he is now in hospital.
Quote from: humbert on August 22, 2013, 01:36 AM
Is your new avatar a picture of you?
YES, That's me.
:)
He looks like a god. Compared to that I feel terrible with my cap. I put it because I cut my hair, not to look like a skinhead.
I thought he would have been younger. We are so used to seeing very young people in Egypt or in Africa that we think everyone there is below 20. And in certain part of Europe, its the contrary, you are astonished when you are not seeing an old dodderer.
seeing this age pyramid, Its still true that Egypt is very young though:
(http://tfw.cachefly.net/snm/images/nm/pyramids/eg-2005.png)
Note that the best clips have been updated: http://www.nomaher.com/forum/index.php?topic=1020.msg9154#msg9154
@Scarface - I try not to watch the news too much. I might read an article somewhere now and then. With any news media you never know what lie to believe.
Ahmad - thanks for clarifying your post. You know more about the Brotherhood than I do, but from what I'm hearing your opinion is correct. Just for starters I heard they even favor strict Islamic law to the point where they're even attacking Christian churches. You've told us many times you are against this sort of thing.
BTW, you look exactly like Hosni. Your dark glasses, the way you comb your hair, the shape of your face, your skin tone... are you sure he's not a member of your family? :) ;) :) I bet you that more than one cute Egyptian girl has tried to get your attention. ;D :D
@humbert
I want to clarify that the violence was provoked by the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood party, and done by some of their supporters who don't use their brains, and also done by some terrorist groups.
Even if the leaders don't order their supporters to kill or burn directly, their speeches which are full of hatred will do the purpose of provoking violence.
Those terrorist groups attack both Christians and Muslims because - in their belief - we are non-religious and so, they are allowed to harm us !!
But just to be fair, I'm not sure about the nature of the relations between the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood party and those terrorist groups.
:)
@Ahmad - thanks so very much for your input. It is precisely because of extremists such as the Muslim Brotherhood (and others) that Islam has acquired such a bad name in the western world. I firmly believe that Islam - a religion of peace, love and respect - has been hijacked by terrorists who think otherwise. This sort of thing is by no means unique to Muslims. Christianity too has had its share of inquisitions and brutality, also led by miscreants who think they know what's best for all of us.
Please give me your opinion - do you agree with the military's coup d'etat and their actions afterwards?
Quote from: humbert on August 26, 2013, 08:41 PM
*** It is precisely because of extremists such as the Muslim Brotherhood (and others) that Islam has acquired such a bad name in the western world.
Just to be fair, not all the Muslim Brotherhood.
Many of them have quit this party after the bad decisions of their leadership.
I don't exactly understand the word "d'etat", but in general, I think the military's coup shouldn't be called a coup in this case because it wasn't the will of the military. It was provoked by the will of most of the Egyptians except the Muslim brotherhood and the other supporters of Mursi.
After Mursi, a transitional period of 6 months is determined until the next president.
Regarding what they are doing after the military's coup, I really started not to trust any man of power. I don't know whether they are good or not. I'm not sure about the news they say in the media. I got bored with this talking about politics all the day. Some channels are with Mursi and some against him. I really don't know what to trust any more. I don't see what is being said with my own eyes to be sure. So, I gave up following up the news because I got bored and so, forgive me if I can't tell you about what they're doing after Mursi.
In french,Etat means State. I thought the french expression coup d'état was translated by coup in English, but probably humbert is mastering french so well hes mixing the 2 expressions.
I was wrong the expression coup d'état exists in English (like coup de grâce, also a french expression) and is equivalent to coup - checked on a dictionary.
Thanks scarface :)
About Egypt I think there are two things: what you see on tv and what is not said.
On tv they show bearded guys with kalashnikov shouting Allah akbar. It gives a poor idea of Islam, its not representative of Egypt, and probably these men are even ignoring the real precepts of religion.
And if you are not naive, you can imagine that what is at stake for the real muslim brothers, the members of the government and their henchmen, that's to say there few people, is financial. Probably they can benefit from this system, they have perks or others things...
To give you an idea of how much these people can be rich, in 2011, 11 cars of the son of the president of Equatorial Guinea have been seized in Paris for several million of euros, because he was suspected of corruption. here is a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeJJB3O4YcI
a lamborghini in Egypt:
(https://i.ibb.co/R3rfLzW/lambo.jpg)
YES, the situation in Syria is much more serious and I think there is who wants to make Egypt like Syria, but also, I hope and believe he can't.
Quote from: scarface on August 27, 2013, 06:09 PM
About Egypt I think there are two things: what you see on tv and what is not said.
On tv they show bearded guys with kalashnikov shouting Allah akbar. It gives a poor idea of Islam, its not representative of Egypt, and probably these men are even ignoring the real precepts of religion.
And for that, I don't want to misjudge all the Muslim brotherhood. Because for example, many of them are not bearded, and some are bearded. Also there are many bearded people who don't support Muslim brothers and they are good people as well. Those bearded guys who kill and burn are the real terrorism who always hide in deserts, specially in Sinai desert.
So, I want to say that beard is not a measure.
But this doesn't mean that I like the way of thinking of the Muslim brotherhood. I'm against any party calling himself Islamist because I think they always be NOT on the right course. I like the balance in anything because I think it's the main basis of life.
That's what I wanted to say, the party in itself is not bound to be bad. But in reality, even with another party, the islamists wont disappear. In france for example, the religious political parties are forbidden, but it doesnt prevent some people to become terrorists, even recently converted people. But in fact those people are usually not really knowing the religious instructions.
As for Syria, There is few hope of a rapid improvement of the situation. For me there is also a physical cause. For example, If you invite only me at your birthday and if there is a fight, there will be at most 2 dead, if you invite every specialist of the forum, the situation could be much worse. And in syria the population has been increasing constantly since 1960. In fact the country is relatively populated when we know that a large majority of the country is desert. in this sense the situation in Syria is not totally different from the one in Egypt.
(http://www.aymennjawad.org/jawad/pics/large/1.jpg)
Religious extremists of any persuasion have been around forever and will never go away completely. The good part is that they are inevitably a small minority who do nothing more than give others a bad name, not to even mention their desire to impose their will by force.
One thing I've been saying about Syria is that it's biggest problems will begin the day Bashar is overthrown. The only thing those in the Free Syrian Army agree on is the overthrow of the Assad regime, they are very divided on what happens next. I don't know why I keep thinking that we're going to have a similar situation as has happened in many other countries whereby the removal of a dictator is followed by a far worse situation.
@Scarface - there is no English word for "coup d'etat", so they simply borrowed the term from French. Spanish, by comparison, does have a word for it: golpe de estado.
to humbert:
in fact, a lot of english words are coming from the french because there have been french kings in UK. for example: orange, influence, perception, surprise, suggestion, administration, marine, colonel, lieutenant, initiative, routine (same words in french), dog (coming from dogue), cat (chat), pear (poire)...
but other words have changed their sense in english (fastidious means meticulous), in french fastidieux means boring. Others are not generally used in english (fatigue, used in medicine, tiredness is more widespread in english)
You're right. As I understand it, modern English began after the Norman invasion in 1066. It was the result of mixing French and its Latin root with the more Gemanic dialects of Old English spoken at that time. Phonetically speaking, both French and English are absolute disasters - at least when compared to [for example] Italian and Spanish, in which most often their words are pronounced just like they're spelled.
Here is my take on what happened & is happening up to now in Egypt, it's natural that some may not agree with me..
In short, the old regime is back. It never left the seen even during the year when the moderate Islamic brotherhood ruled.
The revolution occurred on Jan. 25 2011. Supreme Council of the Armed Forces took over in Feb. 12 (Mubarak's Men).
A plan was set then to let the Islamists rise then fall miserably.
Five times the general public went to the ballot box, all of which the Islamists won by a majority (Constitutional Amendments, Parliament, lower house, Presidency, and the 2012 constitution).
President Muhammad Mursy came to power in an Egypt taken over by what is called "The Deep State".
SCAF, intelligence, the courts, the interior ministry, the media, Al Azhar (Muslim's religious establishment) & Church leaderships, soar losers in the presidential election & rival opposition parties, all took part in what came to be the 3rd of July military coup, or the July 30th revolution if you wish (who are we kidding? ;D).
Not to mention certain uncooperative Arab states, their propaganda machines, and petro-dollars.
The Supreme Constitutional Court, who Mursy tried to immunize his decisions from, crippled democracy by dissolving both houses of parliament, and taking part in deposing Mursy a few days after millions took to the streets protesting Mursy. The head of the court became a temp-president until elections took place.
The leader of the coup, now president Abdelfatah El-Sisi was a member of SCAF, and a high ranking intelligence officer during Mubarak's time who was ironically trusted & promoted to minister of defense by Mursy.
Many massacres occurred in the last year. Tens of thousands were imprisoned. Many of the corrupt regime members & business men of Mubaraks era are either in government posts, found not guilty, or on the road to being freed by the corrupt justice system. The economy is bad. Austerity measures have been taken which is making angry many of those who supported El-Sisi before.
At the end of Al Midan (The Square) documentary, the revolutionary kid starring in the film said "We took down Hosny Mubarak, and now Mursy, and will take down whomever comes after"..
Egypt could be looking at another revolution.. God knows..
Anyways, history will remember that Mursy was a president like no other when it comes to tolerating protesters anywhere & anytime, even at the door steps of the presidential palace or during Friday prayers. He kept the leash on the police.
aa1234779 -> Is it or is it not true that the Islamic Brotherhood's aim was to impose Sharia law and declare Egypt an Islamic Republic similar to Iran or Saudi Arabia? I do remember there were huge protests at Tahrir Square against Morsi. Please answer this for me.
As for what's going on in Gaza, I have a question. First, I am no fan of Israel and I'm highly sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. The Israelis argue 2 points: (1) that the Hamas-controlled government doesn't stop launching rockets at Israel, often at non-military targets; and (2) that Hamas hides by using the civilian population as human shields and in the process causing any retaliation to be focused on cities. How would you respond?
Quote from: humbert on July 15, 2014, 03:14 AM
aa1234779 -> Is it or is it not true that the Islamic Brotherhood's aim was to impose Sharia law and declare Egypt an Islamic Republic similar to Iran or Saudi Arabia? I do remember there were huge protests at Tahrir Square against Morsi. Please answer this for me.
Iran is not an example when it comes to implementing the laws of Islam or Sharia. The Shia sect ruling Iran & what's left of Iraq is a minority in the Islamic world, about 20% of Muslims, that adhere to a completely different set of laws. The rest are Sunni following the teachings of Quran & the tradition of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
Saudi Arabia on the other hand is a
monarchy that implements Sharia in the courts.
Sharia law has ruled all of the Arab world & other parts of the world until colonists visited and stayed. After independence, they or the world powers behind them made sure Sharia stays in the libraries, not in government.
In Egypt, it was the Egyptian public through the ballot boxes that brought the Islamists to power because the people want Sharia. Then voted yes for the 2012 constitution which reasserts the idea of being ruled by it instead of secular laws.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Constitution_of_2012
And yes, millions took to the streets to protest Mursi after one year of being democratically elected.
Does that justify prematurely ending his 4-year-term? The slaughtering of a few thousand of his supporters who are by the millions similar to those in Tahrir?
BTW, after the coup, Tahrir has been a fortress occupied by the Army & Police.. Only Sisi's supporters are allowed there!
Quote from: humbert on July 15, 2014, 03:14 AM
As for what's going on in Gaza, I have a question. First, I am no fan of Israel and I'm highly sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. The Israelis argue 2 points: (1) that the Hamas-controlled government doesn't stop launching rockets at Israel, often at non-military targets; and (2) that Hamas hides by using the civilian population as human shields and in the process causing any retaliation to be focused on cities. How would you respond?
Hamas is only a faction of the resistance. To be clear, the Zionist entity started this war on Gaza after the killing of 3 Israelis in the west bank. Israeli airstrikes target civilians intentionally. The struggling/suffering Palestinian people fully support the resistance & will not give up defying the occupation. As to them being human shields that is not completely true, but so are the Israeli occupiers, many of whom are military or reservists.
I'm aware of the differences between Shia and Sunni Islam. What differences exist in the Sharia law in Iran and that imposed by Sunnis such as the Taliban? Is it that in Iran you get 100 lashes for drinking alcohol, where as in Afghanistan you get only 50? Or is there more to it than that?
In all history, theocracies (governments based on religion) have been far more brutal that secular dictatorships. They rationalize their acts by saying it is the will of God. Sharia law is a perfect example. Had the Muslim Brotherhood had its way I would fear greatly for Coptics and for those Egyptians who choose to be secular. I should stress that this sort of thing is by no means limited to Islam. The people of Spain endured the Holy Inquisition for 350 years.
Constitutional guarantees exist precisely to protect the right of minorities against the tyranny of the majority. I agree that Morsy was freely elected, but was he being pushed by the Brotherhood to create a theocratic Islamic state, or where the rights of minorities protected under the constitution?
Quote from: humbert on July 16, 2014, 06:59 AM
I'm aware of the differences between Shia and Sunni Islam. What differences exist in the Sharia law in Iran and that imposed by Sunnis such as the Taliban? Is it that in Iran you get 100 lashes for drinking alcohol, where as in Afghanistan you get only 50? Or is there more to it than that?
There are a great number of differences between sunni & shia, but the two in your example both do practice deviancies & extremities in their implementation of Sharia.
QuoteIn all history, theocracies (governments based on religion) have been far more brutal that secular dictatorships. They rationalize their acts by saying it is the will of God.
The Islamic justice system is not theocratic nor secular. The scholars' job is to interpret the laws Quran & Sunnah (1400+ years old) rather than write it. Iranian clergymen on the other hand can come up with new stuff at anytime desirable and claim it is holy.
Here is a book about secular extremism, something the brotherhood has been dealing with non-violently in Egypt for many decades:
http://islamfuture.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/return-of-the-pharaoh-memoir-in-nasirs-prison/
Nowadays, Egypt is a police state no different then that time.
QuoteSharia law is a perfect example. Had the Muslim Brotherhood had its way I would fear greatly for Coptics and for those Egyptians who choose to be secular. I should stress that this sort of thing is by no means limited to Islam. The people of Spain endured the Holy Inquisition for 350 years.
Christians, Jews, and people of other non-Muslims have lived in peace for hundreds of years under the rule of Sharia everywhere it ruled.
You do know that Jews suffered the same as Muslims in the Inquisition which was carried out by Catholics?
Islam forbids forcing religion on anyone and will let anyone live in Islamic lands protected for nothing but a small fee.
Quote
Constitutional guarantees exist precisely to protect the right of minorities against the tyranny of the majority. I agree that Morsy was freely elected, but was he being pushed by the Brotherhood to create a theocratic Islamic state, or where the rights of minorities protected under the constitution?
These are only assumptions. Even if the constitution did not clearly point to that, the constitution forbids discrimination against anyone. I'm afraid it's the majority needs protection nowadays from the ruling secular extremists in Egypt. The people that were democratically elected are all now in prisons or abroad. They are a terrorist organization as pronounced by the law!!!
Let's clarify a point to be sure we're talking about the same thing. You're saying Muslims lived in peace for many years with non-Muslims under Sharia law? Was everybody subject to Sharia law or just the Muslims. For example, if a Christian or Jewish man was caught drinking would he have been given [for example] 50 lashes despite the fact that these religions have no prohibition on alcohol? Would a non-Muslim woman be stoned to death for adultery even despite the fact that she and her husband had reached some sort of solution among themselves?
As for everything else, I strongly believe one thing: religion and government can never be mixed. Doing so is a recipe for disaster. I mean any religion, certainly not just Islam. Religion is a private matter that cannot ever be enforced by the rule of law. Let's go back to alcohol as an example. Suppose I were Egyptian and the Muslim Brotherhood remained in power and established some sort of Islamic rule. If they now told me I could no longer drink, I consider this a gross violation of my rights. I am not a Muslim and therefore not subject to their rules, not to mention the fact that I drink responsibly and hurt nobody in the process.
I strongly agree with freedom of religion, but even more with freedom from religion, in fact, you can't have one without the other. I fail to see how Islam can be called a religion of peace and tolerance if they try to forcibly impose their rules on the rest of us.
Sorry for interrupting but let me say that I don't think so.
Non-Muslims can do what they want as long as they don't harm others, like drinking alcohol for example. (although it's a crime in Sharia for Muslims).
In short, as long as Muslims are not involved in the crimes of non-Muslims, non-Muslims can solve their matters using their rules.
I remember a story that happened during our prophet's era (peace be upon him and all the prophets).. in which a Muslim is the one who is involved not non-Muslim. However, the penalty could be cancelled too.
Someday, a Muslim man came to our prophet confessing to him that he had committed adultery. Our prophet responded to him saying that he might kissed only and told him to go back and pray for forgiveness..
The man came back to the prophet 3 times saying the same thing, and the prophet also responded the same in the 3 times.
I understand from this that our merciful prophet didn't want to hear the whole story and he saw that the man became sad about his crime and wanted Allah to forgive him,
All of this are signs of repentance and he is a good man,
so the prophet wanted to forgive him, so he told him to go back and pray for forgiveness..
So, we can conclude that in crimes in which the Muslim doesn't harm others, forgiveness is allowed and penalty is not always necessary.
Also, he should cover himself (not telling others) as long as nobody had seen him, and pray for forgiveness and Allah will forgive him if he truly regrets what he has done and decides not to do it again.
.. Allah wants first to cover people's mistakes (as long as they don't harm others) until they repent, because Allah told us that his mercy precedes his anger.
If the man did what he was told, Allah would forgive him too.
But since he came back again and again and people knew about his crime, the penalty must have been executed so as not to let others think that the prophet was not applying Allah's rules and the adultery is easy and they can do it and earn forgiveness !!
This man was pure because although nobody had seen him doing his crime, he knew that Allah had seen him and he wanted his forgiveness even if the cost was his life, so I think our prophet saw this in the man and by that, he deserved forgiveness without any penalty. But the man didn't understand this tolerance.
@Ahmed. I agree with what you said. One companion also came to the Prophet (pbuh) and said that he had done everything with a woman except intercourse.. After being turned away more than once, the Prophet asked if he had prayed with them Esha, he said he did, then the Prophet responded that his sin was forgiven. Yes, a sinner should cover his sin & repent and it's undesirable in Sharia that one confesses or gets caught. Abiding the law should stem from the heart out of the longing for the reward & fear of punishment in the afterlife.
Quote from: humbert on July 17, 2014, 05:38 AM
Let's clarify a point to be sure we're talking about the same thing. You're saying Muslims lived in peace for many years with non-Muslims under Sharia law? Was everybody subject to Sharia law or just the Muslims. For example, if a Christian or Jewish man was caught drinking would he have been given [for example] 50 lashes despite the fact that these religions have no prohibition on alcohol? Would a non-Muslim woman be stoned to death for adultery even despite the fact that she and her husband had reached some sort of solution among themselves?
Drinking indoors for non-Muslims is allowed in a Muslim state. It's prohibited for the ruler to break the privacy of Muslims even when it comes to something happening under the cover of a closed house.
As to stoning or lashing for adultery for Muslims, it's either a confession (judge should turn away multiple times the confessor as the prophet did) or four witnesses that have seen the most explicit part of the intercourse, and if that doesn't comply for the witnesses they are the ones lashed 80 times and the testimony of the false witness will never be accepted again.
Non-Muslims are treated the same only when they bring the matter to court, other than that it's really hard in Sharia to prove such a crime against someone.
Quote
As for everything else, I strongly believe one thing: religion and government can never be mixed. Doing so is a recipe for disaster. I mean any religion, certainly not just Islam. Religion is a private matter that cannot ever be enforced by the rule of law. Let's go back to alcohol as an example. Suppose I were Egyptian and the Muslim Brotherhood remained in power and established some sort of Islamic rule. If they now told me I could no longer drink, I consider this a gross violation of my rights. I am not a Muslim and therefore not subject to their rules, not to mention the fact that I drink responsibly and hurt nobody in the process.
Awkwardly, in the year Mursi ruled, he renewed three year contracts for liquor stores instead of one year as it was before.
Banning non-Muslims from drinking or eating pork or whatever else they responsibly do in their privacy is considered an extremity. In Saudi Arabia, they are allowed to do so by the way.
The brotherhood is lenient in theory when it comes to implementing Sharia as can be seen in their fatwas & books that I've read.
In fact, they are more lenient than Saudis because Egyptians are fun loving people that aren't extreme in anyway. If you visit Egypt sometime, you'll see them as no different from other Egyptians. The media gave them an unrealistic image.
QuoteI strongly agree with freedom of religion, but even more with freedom from religion, in fact, you can't have one without the other. I fail to see how Islam can be called a religion of peace and tolerance if they try to forcibly impose their rules on the rest of us.
Islam protects freedom of religion that it is never forced upon anyone, the legislative evidence for that in the Quran:
There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing. - Quran 2:256
And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers? - Quran 10:99
And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." - Quran 18:29
If you do good, you do good for yourselves; and if you do evil, [you do it] to yourselves. - Quran 17:7
There has come to you enlightenment from your Lord. So whoever will see does so for [the benefit of] his soul, and whoever is blind [does harm] against it. And [say], "I am not a guardian over you." - Quran 6:104
"Indeed, We guided him to the way, be he grateful or be he ungrateful." - Quran 76:3
Say, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away - then upon him is only that [duty] with which he has been charged, and upon you is that with which you have been charged. And if you obey him, you will be [rightly] guided. And there is not upon the Messenger except the [responsibility for] clear notification." - Quran 24:54
And obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away - then upon Our Messenger is only [the duty of] clear notification. - Quran 64:12
And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and beware. And if you turn away - then know that upon Our Messenger is only [the responsibility for] clear notification. - Quran 5:92
So if they argue with you, say, "I have submitted myself to Allah [in Islam], and [so have] those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture and [to] the unlearned, "Have you submitted yourselves?" And if they submit [in Islam], they are rightly guided; but if they turn away - then upon you is only the [duty of] notification. And Allah is Seeing of [His] servants. - Quran 3:20
Say, "O mankind, the truth has come to you from your Lord, so whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul, and whoever goes astray only goes astray [in violation] against it. And I am not over you a manager." - Quran 10:108
Indeed, We sent down to you the Book for the people in truth. So whoever is guided - it is for [the benefit of] his soul; and whoever goes astray only goes astray to its detriment. And you are not a manager over them. - Quran 39:41
But if Allah had willed, they would not have associated. And We have not appointed you over them as a guardian, nor are you a manager over them. - Quran 6:107
And whether We show you part of what We promise them or take you in death, upon you is only the [duty of] notification, and upon Us is the account. - Quran 13:40
Then upon you is only the [duty of] notification. And Allah is Seeing of [His] servants. - Quran 3:20
This is God's law that most Muslims read & understand. Goes the same for other issues. Scholars & judges interpret that law but cannot change a thing or claim something in the Quran or Sunnah when it is not their. It's just another justice system of the many out there.
In my view, the problem as I have said is that the majority of Muslims in Islamic Nations are being ruled by the minority of secular extremists and aren't allowed to go back to the laws of Sharia that has ruled them before colonialists came, divided the land & people, and imposed unjust secular laws that come from France, England, or the minds of the short-sighted humans. You can rest assured sharia isn't coming anywhere around you anytime soon ;D
aa1234779 -> Everything you said makes perfect sense and would be typical of a truly free secular government. In other words, religion is religion, government is government and people can do as they please only so long as they do not infringe on the rights of anybody else. Are you saying this is truly the Muslim Brotherhood's platform?
As for adultery, honestly I didn't fully understand your explanation, but my opinion is this: we're talking a private matter that has no place in government with the possible exception of laws concerning divorce. The guilty party must reconcile with their spouse and with Allah directly. As I understand it, only Allah forgives sins, men do not.
Jon Snow speaks about what he saw in Gaza:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mR1LGoNg5p4
Saddening that they have to put up with more of this during Eid..
Quote from: aa1234779 on July 28, 2014, 03:00 AM
Saddening that they have to put up with more of this during Eid..
Murder is murder, Eid or not. Then these people wonder why they've been hated by everybody since time began.
You know, Ive been wondering what Ahmad really thought about what happened in Egypt, that's to say if he had felt relieved or revolted after the army killed 1500 terrorists and detained 15000, notably during the protests of Rabaa and Nahda, to bring back stability in the country.
Clearly, these were unconventional measures, but this was a courageous decision and personally, I consider General Sissi a savior for Egypt. This country was facing a civil war because these people were calling for a conflict, but today it seems that the situation has improved, Egypt even tries to promote again tourism.
(https://i.ibb.co/THvP7vy/sissi.jpg)
Of course, some people have disapproved of the means used by Sissi to stabilize Egypt, however many Egyptians are now supporting him. Perhaps it's also because there is a crackdown against the protesters.
The man who dressed his mule as Sissi has been sentenced to one year of jail.
It is not possible for any country that has been forever ruled by dictators to become an constitutional democracy overnight. I agree that al-Sisi has stabilized the country and eliminated the Muslim Brotherhood. At least in that regard he's a savior. Let's hope he doesn't become another Mubarak.
Today I’m going to hold a conference about Egypt.
Its "calligraphies", blends of calligraphy and graffiti, always held under their scrolls, abstract in appearance, a hidden meaning: quotations carefully chosen to tie the places, their history and their identity. With his latest work, the street artist El Seed pushed his action on an unprecedented scale, resulting in giving an international visibility to a poorly considered district of Cairo.
(http://opencityprojects.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Final-Zaraeeb-Edited-2.jpg)
On March 15, the French of Tunisian origin, aged 34, revealed on social networks his tour de force: an anamorphosis covering nearly fifty buildings, and visible in its entirety only by taking a higher perspective, on the opposite hill. The words of this tangle of graffiti are then re-forming: "If anyone wants to see the sunlight, he must rub his eyes. "A quote of Athanasius of Alexandria, a Coptic Bishop of the third century, a great figure of early Christianity, which summarizes the goal of El Seed", to shed light "on the Coptic community organized around waste management of the town.
"In my new project, Perception, I question the judgments and misconceptions that the company may have unconsciously on a community, based on the differences. In the district of Manshiet Nasser, Cairo, the Coptic community Zaraeeb has been collecting garbage in the city for decades and has developed the most efficient recycling system and most profitable globally.
(https://i.ibb.co/smsNnnC/ZABBALINS.jpg)
Yet this place is perceived as dirty, it is marginalized and kept apart." Like its inhabitants, the Zabbalin (" collectors ").
It’s an ecosystem developed in the 1940s, when Cairo was developed and gained momentum in the 1980s, becoming a real "gut" where urban waste of the city gathered after collection to be sorted . Here live some 65 000 people, mostly Coptic Christians. Life here has deteriorated from 2003, when the authorities under the regime of Hosni Mubarak, decided to entrust waste management to large international companies.
"The idea was to streamline the system and better serve poor neighborhoods neglected by Zabbalin. Then, in spring 2009, on the pretext of the outbreak of influenza A (H1N1), the government organized the slaughter of some 300,000 zabbalin pigs. However, animals fed on organic matter sorted by collectors. These two mutations have disrupted their situation, "explained in 2010 in the World report.
Despite outstanding performance in terms of recycling, the rate obtained by various private companies would reach 2% to 8%, against about 80% for Zabbalin" says journalist Hervé Kempf. In 2013, however, faced with the inefficiency of the official collections, the city was backing up under the leadership of the Ministry of Environment and the syndicate of Zabbalin, to finally formalize the work of forty-four local collection companies, involving some work for one thousand families.
El Seed honors the members of this shadow community, seen as outcasts. "We gave them the name" Zabaleen "(" the people of garbage "), but this is not how they call themselves. They did not live among the garbage, but live out of waste; and it is not their waste, but those of the entire town. They are the ones who clean the town of Cairo, "wrote the artist.
The adventure required a year of preparation for the artist and almost a month of work for teams on platforms suspended throughout the district. He described the immersion as "exceptional" with the locals, who supported this unique artistic project in Egypt. The operation was kept confidential throughout its implementation "to ensure that all goes well" in the town that barely tolerates evil artistic expressions in the streets.