Maher's Digital World

bhai 
. im new & not know about software . Microsoft.Windows.XP.Professional.SP3.Integrated.November.2011 ji kya iski bootable cd banani hai. aur iski installation process kya hai.bhai i think u understand me.  :-\

Hello Nadeem.
No, I don't understand you! English please.

hi maher
my english is poor. so pardon me.
i upgrademy previously installed xp sp3 from
Microsoft.Windows.XP.Professional.SP3.Integrated.november.2011.SATA.By.M

aher,
it required a product key, any help? I notice you said you dont need one but it

does, & can i update this installation.can u solve my problem.
1- is format previous  install version ?
2- can u explain me(or new) how to install after downloading Microsoft.Windows.XP.Professional.SP3.Integrated.november.2011.SATA.By.Mahe
3-ur image file how to burn in which type like- dvd-rom(iso),(boot)(udf)  (copy) . 

Quote from: nadeem on November 12, 2011, 03:15 PM
hi maher
my english is poor. so pardon me.
i upgrademy previously installed xp sp3 from
Microsoft.Windows.XP.Professional.SP3.Integrated.november.2011.SATA.By.M

aher,
it required a product key, any help? I notice you said you dont need one but it

does, & can i update this installation.can u solve my problem.
1- is format previous  install version ?
2- can u explain me(or new) how to install after downloading Microsoft.Windows.XP.Professional.SP3.Integrated.november.2011.SATA.By.Mahe
3-ur image file how to burn in which type like- dvd-rom(iso),(boot)(udf)  (copy) .

HELLO NADEEM
yeh image bahut hi achaa hai,
pehli baat ki is image se aap upgrade nai kar sakte hai
mein aap ko batata hu kaise install karte hai xp
1] pehle yeh image download karo pura aur 100% download hone ke baad seed karo thodi der ke liye.
2] aap ko 1 .iso file milegi, use aapko write karna hoga cd mein nero ya power iso program se
3] c drive mein jo kuch kaam ka hai use d drive mein shift kar lo
4] write ki hui cd rom mein dal kar pc restart karo
5] jab motherboard ka naam aya toh jaldi se delete button dabao usse aab bios mein chale jaoge
udhar aap ko koi setting ko change nai karna hai bas "LOAD DEFAULT SETTINGS" F9 SE KARNA HAI
phir f10 dabakar uss settings ko save karna hai
ab aap ka pc phir se restart hoga
phir wapas se motherboard ka naam aayega tab aap ko f10 ya f11 ya f9 dabana hai toh phir aap boot menu mein jaakar aap ka cd rom select karna hai
phir aap ko koi bhi key jaldi se press karna hai
baki ka age ka aap ko aata hi hoga
jab aap drive select karne par aaoge tab aap ko c drive select karna hai aur jab wo puchta hai ki do u want to format this drive using ntfs file format system  toh aap ko select karna hai format with ntfs format system [Quick] agar [Normal] loge toh baut time lagega kareeb 10 min
phir aage ka toh aapko ata hai

phir bhi agar aap ko samajh nai aaya toh aap mujhe call kar sakte hai --- 808-786-1619.

if u want it in english ---
Step 1 - Start your PC and place your Windows XP CD in your CD/DVD-ROM drive. Your PC should automatically detect the CD and you will get a message saying "Press any key to boot from CD"
Step 2 - At this stage it will ask you to press F6 if you want to install a third party Raid or SCSI driver. If you are using a an IDE Hard Drive then you do not need to press F6. If you are using a SCSI or SATA Hard drive then you must press F6 otherwise Windows will not detect your Hard Drive during the installation. Please make sure you have the Raid drivers on a floppy disk. Normally the drivers are supplied on a CD which you can copy to a floppy disk ready to be installed. If you are not sure how to do this then please read your motherboard manuals for more information.
Step 3 - Press S to Specify that you want to install additional device.
Step 4 - You will be asked to insert the floppy disk with the Raid or SCSI drivers. Press enter after you have inserted the disk.
Step 5 - You will see a list of Raid drivers for your HDD. Select the correct driver for your device and press enter.
Step 6 - You will then get a Windows XP Professional Setup screen. You have the option to do a new Windows install, Repair previous install or quit. Since we are doing a new install we just press Enter to continue.
Step 7 - You will be presented with the End User Licensing Agreement. Press F8 to accept and continue
Step 8 - This step is very important. Here we will create the partition where Windows will be installed. If you have a brand new unformatted drive you will get a screen similar to below. In our case the drive size is 8190MB. We can choose to install Windows in this drive without creating a partition, hence use the entire size of the drive. If you wish to do this you can just press enter and Windows will automatically partition and format the drive as one large drive.
However for this demonstration I will create two partition. The first partition will be 6000MB (C: drive) and second partition would be 2180MB (E: drive). By creating two partition we can have one which stores Windows and Applications and the other which stores our data. So in the future if anything goes wrong with our Windows install such as virus or spyware we can re-install Windows on C: drive and our data on E: drive will not be touched. Please note you can choose whatever size partition your like. For example if you have 500GB hard drive you can have two partition of 250GB each.
Press C to create a partition.
Step 8 - Windows will show the total size of the hard drive and ask you how much you want to allocate for the partition you are about to create. I will choose 6000MB. You will then get the screen below. Notice it shows C: Partition 1 followed by the size 6000 MB. This indicates the partition has been created. We still have an unpartitioned space of 2189MB. Next highlight the unpartitioned space by pressing down the arrow key. Then press C to create another partition. You will see the total space available for the new partition. Just choose all the space left over, in our case 2180MB.
Step 9 - Now you will see both partition listed. Partition 1 (C: Drive) 6000MB and Partition 2 (E: Drive) 2180MB. You will also have 8MB of unpartitioned space. Don't worry about that. Just leave it how its is. Windows normally has some unpartitioned space. You might wonder what happened to D: drive. Windows has automatically allocated D: drive to CD/DVD-ROM.
elect Partition 1 (C: Drive) and press Enter.
Step 10 - Choose format the partition using NTFS file system.This is the recommended file system. If the hard drive has been formatted before then you can choose quick NTFS format. We chose NTFS because it offers many security features, supports larger drive size, and bigger size files.


Windows will now start formatting drive C: and start copying setup files as shown on the two images below :

Windows XP Screenshot - Click to enlarge
Step 11 - After the setup has completed copying the files the computer will restart. Leave the XP CD in the drive but this time DO NOT press any key when the message "Press any key to boot from CD" is displayed. In few seconds setup will continue. Windows XP Setup wizard will guide you through the setup process of gathering information about your computer.
12 - Choose your region and language.
Step 13 - Type in your name and organization.
Step 14. Enter your product key.
Step 15 - Name the computer, and enter an Administrator password. Don't forget to write down your Administrator password.
Step 16 - Enter the correct date, time and choose your time zone.
Step 17 - For the network setting choose typical and press next.
Step 18 - Choose workgroup or domain name. If you are not a member of a domain then leave the default settings and press next. Windows will restart again and adjust the display.
Step 19 - Finally Windows will start and present you with a Welcome screen. Click next to continue.
Step 20 - Choose 'help protect my PC by turning on automatic updates now' and press next.
Step 21 - Will this computer connect to the internet directly, or through a network? If you are connected to a router or LAN then choose: 'Yes, this computer will connect through a local area network or home network'. If you have dial up modem choose: 'No, this computer will connect directly to the internet'. Then click Next.
Step 22 - Ready to activate Windows? Choose yes if you wish to active Windows over the internet now. Choose no if you want to activate Windows at a later stage.
Step 23 - Add users that will sign on to this computer and click next.
Step 24 - You will get a Thank you screen to confirm setup is complete. Click finish.
Step 25. Log in, to your PC for the first time.
Step 26 - You now need to check the device manager to confirm that all the drivers has been loaded or if there are any conflicts. From the start menu select Start -> Settings -> Control Panel. Click on the System icon and then from the System Properties window select the Hardware tab, then click on Device Manager.
If there are any yellow exclamation mark "!" next to any of the listed device, it means that no drivers or incorrect drivers has been loaded for that device. In our case we have a Video Controller (VGA card) which has no drivers installed.

Your hardware should come with manufacturer supplied drivers. You need to install these drivers using the automatic setup program provided by the manufacturer or you need to manually install these drivers. If you do not have the drivers, check the manufacturers website to download them.

To install a driver manually use the following procedure:

(a) From the device manager double click on the device containing the exclamation mark.

(b) This would open a device properties window.

(c) Click on the Driver tab.

(d) Click Update Driver button. The Wizard for updating device driver pops up as shown below:

You now get two options. The first option provides an automatic search for the required driver. The second option allows you to specify the location of the driver. If you don't know the location of the driver choose the automatic search which would find the required driver from the manufacturer supplied CD or Floppy disk. Windows would install the required driver and may ask you to restart the system for the changes to take affect. Use this procedure to install drivers for all the devices that contain an exclamation mark. Windows is completely setup when there are no more exclamation marks in the device manager.

Quote from: nadeem on November 12, 2011, 03:15 PM
hi maher
my english is poor. so pardon me.
i upgrademy previously installed xp sp3 from
Microsoft.Windows.XP.Professional.SP3.Integrated.november.2011.SATA.By.M

aher,
it required a product key, any help? I notice you said you dont need one but it

does, & can i update this installation.can u solve my problem.
1- is format previous  install version ?
2- can u explain me(or new) how to install after downloading Microsoft.Windows.XP.Professional.SP3.Integrated.november.2011.SATA.By.Mahe
3-ur image file how to burn in which type like- dvd-rom(iso),(boot)(udf)  (copy) .

if u want it visually, download all the zip files and then extract it in a single folder

agar aapko dekh kar karna hai toh sabhi screenshot zip files download karo aur use 1 folder mein extract karo

Quote from: nadeem on November 11, 2011, 05:41 PM
bhai 
. im new & not know about software . Microsoft.Windows.XP.Professional.SP3.Integrated.November.2011 ji kya iski bootable cd banani hai. aur iski installation process kya hai.bhai i think u understand me.  :-\

 :-* :-*

 ;D

 :o

 ;)

 :D

 :D

Quote from: bladeshark on February 08, 2012, 09:10 AM
HELLO NADEEM
yeh image bahut hi achaa hai,
pehli baat ki is image se aap upgrade nai kar sakte hai
mein aap ko batata hu kaise install karte hai xp

Not to change the subject but again my curiosity has gotten the best of me. Has the Arabic language been officially transliterated so it can be written in the Latin alphabet, or did you just do that on your own? As I'm sure you know, you can add Arabic as one of your languages in Windows and switch back and forth using Alt-LeftShift. The site will support it, I know that because I've posted wierd characters from Windows Character Map without much of a problem. Also, since you added an English translation, you are well within Maher's rules.

Changing back -- are those screenshots of Device Manager with the yellow question marks from your computer or Nadeem's?

screenshots are from build easy PC.com[watermark] not mine or nadeem's
& the language is HINDI and not Arabic

Thank You!!!!!

Quote from: bladeshark on February 09, 2012, 07:20 AM
screenshots are from build easy PC.com[watermark] not mine or nadeem's
& the language is HINDI and not Arabic
Thank You!!!!!

As for that build easy computer, whoever installed Windows didn't do his homework and forgot to put in the proper drivers.  :)

Regarding the language, first thanks for the clarification -- I should have looked at your profile first to see you were from India. Ever the curious one, I have 2 questions for you:

Regarding Hindi, let me ask the very same question I asked when I thought it was Arabic: have they transliterated Hindi so it could be written in Latin letters (as the Japanese have successfully done), or did you just do that yourself? As I mentioned before, surely your computer has installed Hindi as an additional language -- in fact I just checked on the "Region and Language" section of Control Panel and, sure enough, Hindi is supported. I'm pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong) that since English is also widely spoken in India, your keyboard must be similar to those I saw in Taiwan and like Ahmad told me he had, i.e., in the upper right hand corner are the Latin characters (for English) and the lower left hand corner has the corresponding (or closest) Hindi characters. As I also mentioned before, you could have written Nadeem in Hindi. Since you included a translation you are within Maher's rules.

The 2nd question I wanted to ask you -- given the animosity that has existed with Pakistan almost since independence from Britain, and given the fact that Islam is the predominant religion there whereas Hindu predominates in India, do you encounter difficulties with this, or does the Hindu majority respect your beliefs and have no problems with the fact that there may be a Mosque across the street?

Quote from: humb25 on February 10, 2012, 05:50 AM

Quote from: bladeshark on February 09, 2012, 07:20 AM
screenshots are from build easy PC.com[watermark] not mine or nadeem's
& the language is HINDI and not Arabic
Thank You!!!!!

As for that build easy computer, whoever installed Windows didn't do his homework and forgot to put in the proper drivers.  :)

Regarding the language, first thanks for the clarification -- I should have looked at your profile first to see you were from India. Ever the curious one, I have 2 questions for you:

Regarding Hindi, let me ask the very same question I asked when I thought it was Arabic: have they transliterated Hindi so it could be written in Latin letters (as the Japanese have successfully done), or did you just do that yourself? As I mentioned before, surely your computer has installed Hindi as an additional language -- in fact I just checked on the "Region and Language" section of Control Panel and, sure enough, Hindi is supported. I'm pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong) that since English is also widely spoken in India, your keyboard must be similar to those I saw in Taiwan and like Ahmad told me he had, i.e., in the upper right hand corner are the Latin characters (for English) and the lower left hand corner has the corresponding (or closest) Hindi characters. As I also mentioned before, you could have written Nadeem in Hindi. Since you included a translation you are within Maher's rules.

The 2nd question I wanted to ask you -- given the animosity that has existed with Pakistan almost since independence from Britain, and given the fact that Islam is the predominant religion there whereas Hindu predominates in India, do you encounter difficulties with this, or does the Hindu majority respect your beliefs and have no problems with the fact that there may be a Mosque across the street?

Answer to the First Question:- I did the Translation myself. I have a simple US keyboard just with the shortcut keys for WMP,shutdown,sleep, volume + -. and nothing else

Second Question:- NO we do not encounter difficulties. The Hindu majority respect our beliefs and have no problems with the fact that there may be a Mosque across the street. We even have AZAAN,s all five times a day in mic.
VERY FLATTERED TO HAVE YOUR INTEREST IN INDIA. :) :)

Quote from: bladeshark on February 10, 2012, 07:57 AM
Answer to the First Question:- I did the Translation myself. I have a simple US keyboard just with the shortcut keys for WMP,shutdown,sleep, volume + -. and nothing else
Second Question:- NO we do not encounter difficulties. The Hindu majority respect our beliefs and have no problems with the fact that there may be a Mosque across the street. We even have AZAAN,s all five times a day in mic.
VERY FLATTERED TO HAVE YOUR INTEREST IN INDIA. :) :)

No need to be flattered for my interest in India  :). I have been a lover of geography since as far back as I can remember. The fact that I like to know as much as I can about different places, peoples, cultures and religions is almost a hobby of mine. You've opened a can of worms allowing me to ask you questions  ;).

While I know that India is a nation of a billion people who speak many languages, since Hindi is official (as well as English), it really surprises me that keyboards sold there don't have Hindi characters together with Latin characters for English. If you wanted to write something in Hindi, do you add the language to your keyboard and memorize the position of the characters -- or do you simply use Latin characters like you did here? Are you also familiar with languages spoken in the south, such as Tamil? I'm asking mostly because I looked at your profile and found Pune on the map -- you are to the southeast of Mumbai and far south of Delhi. I even saw some pictures

I'm so glad the you have absolutely no problem with the Hindu majority and not only that they respect you, but that they're probably even your friends. What a wonderful world this would be if it were like that everywhere, and those extremists who want to interfere with someone else's beliefs were eradicated from the surface of the Earth! As I explained before, I asked this because of your country's history. Naturally you're familiar with the fact that British India was composed of what is now India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. It was precisely due to religious differences that, when independence came, mostly Islamic Pakistan (East and West at the time) became separate from largely Hindu India -- and let's not even mention the hostilities that continue to exist between the 2 nations.

I'll ask you more stuff later. Thanks for allowing this.

Yes, if I wanted to write in Hindi or Marathi, I have to memorize the location of the character on the English keyboard, like in marathi if you want to type A, in the English keyboard you have to press A,  but first we have to download marathi or hindi [which needed] fonts from the internet and paste the font files in the fonts folder of Microsoft office. believe me its very hard to type in marathi or hindi on the English keyboard, except for months of practice. :)
yes i am familiar with the languages in the south, but not too much. We have a family from south on rent in our house, they know Malayalam, and Tamil.

Yeah many of my friends are Hindus even more than Muslim friends. :P

What a wonderful world this would be if it were like that everywhere, and those extremists who want to interfere with someone else's beliefs were eradicated from the surface of the Earth!

Do you have any religious problems at San Antonio????? :-\ ???

you are always welcome to ask any questions regarding India,computers,movies,games,software,etc,etc.

Quote from: bladeshark on February 12, 2012, 07:48 AM
Yes, if I wanted to write in Hindi or Marathi, I have to memorize the location of the character on the English keyboard, like in marathi if you want to type A, in the English keyboard you have to press A,  but first we have to download marathi or hindi [which needed] fonts from the internet and paste the font files in the fonts folder of Microsoft office. believe me its very hard to type in marathi or hindi on the English keyboard, except for months of practice. :)
yes i am familiar with the languages in the south, but not too much. We have a family from south on rent in our house, they know Malayalam, and Tamil.

There are 2 things I don't fully understand. Before asking you this, I went into Windows 7 Control Panel -> Regions & Languages and found about 4 variations of Hindi that could be added onto Windows. Even if you did that, would you still have to download Hindi fonts? I'm under the impression (and correct me if I'm wrong) that MS Office gets its fonts from those loaded into the OS, plus others it might add when you install it. Maher explained how to add Arabic to XP in a previous post, and it didn't even involve downloading anything. Somehow it's hard to believe the language is available in Control Panel, and yet you still have to go out and search for fonts.

Also, how is it that in India you can't buy a Hindi keyboard, or for that matter keyboards for some of the other languages you mention? I'm thinking maybe not in Pune because it's smaller, but in a big city like Mumbai, certainly some computer store has to have them.

Quote from: bladeshark on February 12, 2012, 07:48 AM
Do you have any religious problems at San Antonio????? :-\ ???

Absolutely not! As I've explained many times here, I had a strict Catholic upbringing and finally at 18 I just got fed up and left the religion. Since then I haven't become a member of any religion. I suppose the only time something negative happened was hearing some guys on the street talking bad about Cubans (I am Cuban), but I don't let that bother me. I've noticed that people here in San Antonio are very friendly and very tolerant, much more so than in Miami when I lived there. To give you an idea, I accompanied my wife to 2 medical appointments. Curiously, on both occasions there were a few Islamic women wearing the traditional veil you're familiar with, but further still there was 1 (on each of the visits) wearing a full shidoor like you see in Iran -- all black and the only thing you could see was her eyes. Not one person or employee even so much as gave her a bad look. There was a man with her who I assume is her husband, but obviously I was afraid to ask him anything. I'm assuming they are either shiites of maybe wahabis.

The people that cause the problems are not the vast majority, they are good people. It is the small group of extremist whose goal is to control how the rest of us live our lives that cause the problem. Since you see them on the news all the time, the media gives the impression that all who belong to their belief system are the same. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Quote from: bladeshark on February 12, 2012, 07:48 AM
you are always welcome to ask any questions regarding India,computers,movies,games,software,etc,etc.

Thanks so very much. I'll continue to do that, rest assured.

No, if I change/install the language from the control panel I don't have to download fonts externally[Thanks to Microsoft]. YES you are right that MS Office gets its fonts from the OS installed.
To tell you frankly that while we install XP or any other OS, we don't even change the language and location settings and leave them as it is, though English is 95% used in writing documents or any other work, and HINDI is used just 5% in typing any documents,just because it is very difficult to type in Hindi on the English keyboard & nobody bothers to change the settings in the control panel [excluding me] & not even tries.Just to tell you not many people in India are computer literate,they even don't know how to format a pc or install heavy or small soft wares. They only just know to make a copy of the installed XP using Norton ghost and when anything happens or any errors they just reformat it using ghost no using of XP compact drive[I fell pity for them]. You will not find a genuine XP cd in anyones hand except for some big companies who purchase bulk licenses from Microsoft because it costs too much [approximately 6-7 k for one copy in Indian Rupees], all XPs are pirated and the automatic updates are turned off to prevent the microsoft counterfeit software message.
not many computer stores have a Hindi or any other language keyboard,almost all or 99% use English keyboard so no computer store owner bares to keep a Hindi keyboard. If you want one you have to place order with advance money.

"I had a strict Catholic upbringing and finally at 18 I just got fed up and left the religion"
why you left, anything strange happened? i believe that christian religion is the most similar to the Muslim religion, just the way of thinking has been changed that Jesus [Peace be upon Him] is the son of GOD, which is wrong [I believe] just because GOD has no Wife,Son,Daughter or any other Relatives. Jesus [Peace be upon Him] was just a messenger from GOD just as Muhammad [Peace be upon Him] was to make people realize that GOD is one and exists, and there will be Day of Resurrection, & Heaven & Hell exists.
Christians have mass on Friday and same as we do, You wear a cap and same as we do, you bury dead bodies,we do bury dead bodies, you have a small meeting after someone dies we do have a meeting.you bathe dead bodies before burying same as we do.

"I was afraid to ask him anything"
You can ask any Muslim about anything any time, just make sure that he is not angry before you ask anything.Though nature of the people differ, if anyone you ask, gives out a negative feeling that he is angry,immediately stop and make sure to ask that question to any other Muslim scholar.

"the media gives the impression that all who belong to their belief system are the same"
Yes many or all movies have Muslims as terrorists and so the Muslims have to hear sayings that who belong to the Muslim religion are the same just because of some ill mental Muslims who terrorize,the whole religion has to suffer.

The Muslim women wear a black clothing covering the whole body just to prevent harm from getting them, today's society's have very corrupted and very narrow minded people, just from getting sexually assaulted or raped Muslim women wear a black clothing.By wearing this clothing the private parts are covered and are not visible.In today's date you wont find a clothing which covers the private parts properly,if they are covered, they reveal the curves.So just to prevent from getting sexually assaulted or raped Muslim women wear a black "Gurkha".

Quote from: BLADESHARK on February 14, 2012, 09:11 AM
No, if I change/install the language from the control panel I don't have to download fonts externally[Thanks to Microsoft]. YES you are right that MS Office gets its fonts from the OS installed.
To tell you frankly that while we install XP or any other OS, we don't even change the language and location settings and leave them as it is, though English is 95% used in writing documents or any other work, and HINDI is used just 5% in typing any documents,just because it is very difficult to type in Hindi on the English keyboard & nobody bothers to change the settings in the control panel [excluding me] & not even tries.

You know, your answer reminds me of many years ago when I was working, I was visited by 2 Indian gentlemen trying to sell me their refrigerant gas. I asked them that I had read somewhere that the Indian government passed a law with the intent of slowly phasing out English, and that what finally happened? The guys explained that the government was forced to back off on that law because removing English was impossible. It was there that he explained the many languages spoken in India, and the fact that in the South few people even speak Hindi. However, in all parts of India anyone who had a reasonably good education spoke English, and that if you wanted to run a business or have a decent job in India, if you didn't know English you were dead. He also explained that Engish serves as the "link language", e.g. an educated northerner and southerner will almost for sure converse in English because there's a good chance they don't understand each other's language. I might note that I've seen English as a link language in many other places too, even where it's not even official.

Quote from: BLADESHARK on February 14, 2012, 09:11 AM
Just to tell you not many people in India are computer literate,they even don't know how to format a pc or install heavy or small soft wares. They only just know to make a copy of the installed XP using Norton ghost and when anything happens or any errors they just reformat it using ghost no using of XP compact drive[I fell pity for them]. You will not find a genuine XP cd in anyones hand except for some big companies who purchase bulk licenses from Microsoft because it costs too much [approximately 6-7 k for one copy in Indian Rupees], all XPs are pirated and the automatic updates are turned off to prevent the microsoft counterfeit software message.
not many computer stores have a Hindi or any other language keyboard,almost all or 99% use English keyboard so no computer store owner bares to keep a Hindi keyboard. If you want one you have to place order with advance money.

This phenomenon you're describing not only exists in India but in many places around the world. The vast majority or computer users I've encountered can barely use a mouse, and if they have a legal copy of Windows it's only because it came preloaded with the computer they bought. I remember once a "technician" wanted to charge my sister-in-law $20 for simply reformatting her hard drive! I don't know how people who do that sort of thing even sleep at night! And of course they have no idea Windows has to be maintained in order to keep it running properly, so as I mentioned before this thing about "my computer runs too slow" is endemic. As for languages and keyboards, now I can see why people over there won't even bother with using Hindi. Fortunately here we don't really have that problem because the languages of Western Europe (brought to the Americas by European imperialists) almost all use the Latin alphabet, so it's just very few character changes to memorize and the fonts stay the same.

Quote from: BLADESHARK on February 14, 2012, 09:11 AM
why you left, anything strange happened? i believe that christian religion is the most similar to the Muslim religion, just the way of thinking has been changed that Jesus [Peace be upon Him] is the son of GOD, which is wrong [I believe] just because GOD has no Wife,Son,Daughter or any other Relatives. Jesus [Peace be upon Him] was just a messenger from GOD just as Muhammad [Peace be upon Him] was to make people realize that GOD is one and exists, and there will be Day of Resurrection, & Heaven & Hell exists.
Christians have mass on Friday and same as we do, You wear a cap and same as we do, you bury dead bodies,we do bury dead bodies, you have a small meeting after someone dies we do have a meeting.you bathe dead bodies before burying same as we do.

I left because the upbring I had was based on the imposition of terror and what I later discovered to be outright lies that were tought has historical truths. As a much younger man I even got to a point where I hated anything having to do with religion. As I got older and wiser, I realized that hatred is a useless emotion which damages only the hater, and it turned to respect and even curiosity. You are correct in the fact that Jesus' message was one of love and forgiveness, and the Muslims believe this too. In fact, despite my being essentially secular, I consider Jesus to be one of my favorite historical figures, along with fine minds like Da Vinci, Geordano Bruno, Galileo and Einstein. I might add that I am also familiar with the differences between Muslim and Christian beliefs regarding Jesus -- Maher himself clarified for me some doubts I had on the subject.

As for masses, to my knowledge they are celebrated by the Catholics and a few of the many other branches of Protestant Christianity which, in belief, are very close to Catholicism. Others simply have a service where they study the Bible and their preacher makes a speech. While masses happen every day except Good Friday (the day Christians believe Jesus was crucified), the Christian equivalent of Friday is Sunday -- so much so that on that day, throughout almost the entire Western Hemisphere and most of Europe, everything closes down. By comparison, in largely Islamic countries and even is Israel, Sunday is a workday like any other. And yes, you are correct -- the correct Christian practice is to bury their dead, although the practice of cremation is coming along simply due to the fact that it's just plain cheaper.

Quote from: BLADESHARK on February 14, 2012, 09:11 AM
You can ask any Muslim about anything any time, just make sure that he is not angry before you ask anything.Though nature of the people differ, if anyone you ask, gives out a negative feeling that he is angry,immediately stop and make sure to ask that question to any other Muslim scholar.
"the media gives the impression that all who belong to their belief system are the same"
Yes many or all movies have Muslims as terrorists and so the Muslims have to hear sayings that who belong to the Muslim religion are the same just because of some ill mental Muslims who terrorize,the whole religion has to suffer.

It is precisely for this reason that I was afraid to approach him. Rest assured it would have been a very different situation if I had known the man. And as you correctly say, extremists fueled by news media reports are enough to make anybody paranoid.

Quote from: BLADESHARK on February 14, 2012, 09:11 AM
The Muslim women wear a black clothing covering the whole body just to prevent harm from getting them, today's society's have very corrupted and very narrow minded people, just from getting sexually assaulted or raped Muslim women wear a black clothing.By wearing this clothing the private parts are covered and are not visible.In today's date you wont find a clothing which covers the private parts properly,if they are covered, they reveal the curves.So just to prevent from getting sexually assaulted or raped Muslim women wear a black "Gurkha".

Here I have to disagree with you and let me explain why. First and as you'll recall, I also saw 3 Muslim women at the waiting room. They too were wearing veils but NOT the full Grukha and you could easily see their faces. They were having a peaceful conversation among themselves. Nobody bothered them and they didn't bother anyone, and, just like the lady in the Gurkha, they were treated with respect by both the non-Muslims in the waiting room and the nursing staff. But my opinion doesn't end there. For an actual rape to happen, the first thing that has to be done is to go inside the mind of a rapist. These are sick people who are usually not sexually interested in a woman who is willing and able to freely have sex with them. Their sexual high comes from the actual violence and the feeling of helplessness imposed on their victims. Further, there are all kinds of rapists -- those that like children, those who prefer middle aged women, and of course those who prefer men and women older than 70. Even in the tropics of Latin America where men are generally more disrespectful than here and women wear less clothing due to the hot climate, most of what you see is guys saying "what a beautiful babe you are" or some comment like that -- believe it or not actual rape is almost unheard of. The MOST disrepectful ones might try to touch one of her tits (or something like that), and are almost always put down by a violent verbal response from the woman (this is infrequent, but it happens). Given that, I simply refuse to believe that in a religion such as Islam that has close to 1 billion followers, that most of the male population is into this kinds of violence against women for the simple reason that they aren't covered from head to toe, especially when you add to that the punishment for it is much greater than here.

Incidentally, if there's something about everything I said where my you believe my facts are incorrect, kindly point this out immediately. I always like to have correct information in my head -- or at least as close to correct as possible  :)

Hello friends,  :)

Quote from: humb25 on February 16, 2012, 05:24 AM
I simply refuse to believe that in a religion such as Islam that has close to 1 billion followers, that most of the male population is into this kinds of violence against women for the simple reason that they aren't covered from head to toe, especially when you add to that the punishment for it is much greater than here.

Sorry for interrupting your chat, but I read that and I wanted to comment.
In Islam, Woman shouldn't show from her body except "Face and Hands", Some don't show anything but what is necessary is not to show more than Face and Hands by wearing veil or any wide clothes.
Allah has set that as a protection for her from any hurt by any means <Bad look or touch or harassment> . You know that a bad look at woman's body is the beginning of Adultery which is forbidden in Islam.
So, If a woman wears wide clothes showing only her face and hands <If she is beautiful, she should cover her face too>, who will look at her with bad intentions ?!

I also want to clarify that it's not necessary to be exposed to harassment if she doesn't wear that. But when it happens, it never happens with a woman wearing a veil for example.
That is the purpose; not to be hurt.

Sorry again and I like you guys. You're very respectable.
Be well and safe.  :D

Hello Ahmad 8)
Thanks for assisting me in replying for Mr. Humbert. :)

Quote from: BLADESHARK on February 16, 2012, 09:20 AM
Hello Ahmad 8)
Thanks for assisting me in replying for Mr. Humbert. :)

My friend Humbert <as he like to be called> and myself had a long chat before in things like that just to exchange culture.
Really, he is a very good man.  :)

"he is a very good man"
Yeah I feel the same.Mr. Humbert is indeed a very good/golden hearted man.

Quote from: BLADESHARK on February 16, 2012, 10:09 AM
"he is a very good man"
Yeah I feel the same.Mr. Humbert is indeed a very good/golden hearted man.

To both Bladeshark and Ahmad -- thanks for the compliment. As they say here in America, "flattery'll getcha everywhere"  :)  Also, please delete the "Mr" when you refer to me. Chronologically I may be a little older than you, but mentally I am a young man. Besides, Mr Humbert was my father (peace be upon him).

Commenting on Ahmad's post concerning how women should dress. If it is written in the Holy Qu'ran that women should wear veils, then it's a part of the Islamic religion and I respect it. If indeed that's the case, then why are some women dressed in a simple veil that just covers their hair but shows their face, whereas others wear the full black Durkha (spelling may be wrong)? I would imagine it has something to do with the different branches of Islam, i.e., regular Sunnis might have one rule, Wahabis (as in Saudi Arabia) have another, and possibly radical Shiites (as in Iran) have their own.

As I explained before, if this something written in the Qu'ran, I respect it. But if not, then in my opinion their logic is flawed. I explained to Bladeshark what I knew concerning people who would commit rape. Furthermore, while many men may be fresh (but not rapists), they are still in the minority. There's another fact that has to be factored into the equation -- by far the vast majority of attacks against women are done by their husbands or live-in boyfriends and not by strangers. Go to any women's protection shelter in any part of the world and invariably almost all these poor victims will tell you the same thing, and will even tell you no stranger has ever attacked them. Let me say 2 things -- of the 3 Islamic women I saw at the doctor's office wearing their veils, 2 were downright beautiful! The other thing I wanted to say is that, if I were a rapist, my next potential target would be precisely the lady in the Durhka. Why? Simply because she would probably put up more resistance, which enhances my sexual desire, and because since she is convered from head to toe, there's always the element of surprise, which is sexually interesting.

To summarize -- it is my opinion that the wearing of veils for other than religious reasons is essentially useless and clearly offers no protection against a potential attacker -- and not even the slightest if her husband is the attacker.

Hello dear friend,  :)

Quote from: humb25 on February 18, 2012, 06:15 AM
To summarize -- it is my opinion that the wearing of veils for other than religious reasons is essentially useless and clearly offers no protection against a potential attacker -- and not even the slightest if her husband is the attacker.

First, Yes, It's written in The Holy Qur'an and also our prophet <Peace be upon him and all prophets> told women not to show more than face and hands.
But there is no problem if a woman wants to cover them too if she was beautiful to make others not to stare at her <Her choice>.

Second, Protection is not the only reason for covering her body with wide clothes. It's also so as not to be a sinner by making men staring at her body parts ...  i.e. Example:
If she doesn't cover her hair, she would be a sinner by every man looking at her hair.

Third, you got it.  ;)
We can't actually count the purposes of an order from Allah. We only try to conclude the cause of that order.
But it's said here that Allah has been known that he exists by mind [Thinking]. However, it's not necessary to understand all the purposes of his orders. i.e.
First, we become sure that Allah exists by evidences in all the universe and in ourselves. Then, we become sure that our prophet Muhammad <Peace be upon him and all prophets> is his messenger to us also by evidences like The Holy Qur'an and his miracles. From that, we have to believe every word from him and not argue with his orders to us as we won't understand all of them as we can't compare our limited thinking to Allah who has created us with that limited thinking.

What I don't understand is this:

Quote from: humb25 on February 18, 2012, 06:15 AMand not even the slightest if her husband is the attacker.

If I understand you right and if you don't know, I want to clarify that between a woman and her husband, there are NO barriers [in dressing]. Also, she can be free with who can't marry her like her father, brother, uncle ... Example; She can show her hair in front of her uncle.

Take care.  ;)

Hello Ahmad! I read your post regarding the proper way to dress for women in the Islamic religion. If as you way we're talking about a matter that's in the Qu'ran, then clearly there's not much more to discuss. It's part of the religion -- end of the story.

You said there were NO restrictions between a man and his wife. If that's the case, then does this mean there is no prohibition against bad men beating and abusing their wives? As I explained, it is here where the vast majority of abuse against women comes from. I don't know how things are over there, but in the US a thing like that is very prohibited, and as I explained before there are many shelters where women and their children can hide from their abusers. Are things much the same over there?

Also, what's the reason some women just wear regular veils and others the full, black costume that only shows their eyes (I forgot the name)?

Quote from: humb25 on February 18, 2012, 11:27 PM
You said there were NO restrictions between a man and his wife. If that's the case, then does this mean there is no prohibition against bad men beating and abusing their wives? As I explained, it is here where the vast majority of abuse against women comes from. I don't know how things are over there, but in the US a thing like that is very prohibited, and as I explained before there are many shelters where women and their children can hide from their abusers. Are things much the same over there?

No no, You should understand what I mean.
What I meant is that there are no restrictions between a man and his wife in dressing <That's in case you don't know that>

Of course, it's forbidden to hurt wives by any means. Men have to treat them very well and NOT to beat or abuse them. Our prophet <Peace be upon him and all prophets> ordered men to take very good care of their wives.

Quote from: humb25 on February 18, 2012, 11:27 PM
Also, what's the reason some women just wear regular veils and others the full, black costume that only shows their eyes (I forgot the name)?

I told you in the last post that the most important thing in women dressing is not to show more than face and hands and wear wide clothes not tight. It's allowed to cover face and hands as it is not mentioned to be forbidden... i.e.
If she doesn't cover them, she is right.
If she covers them, she is right.
If she doesn't cover part of her leg <for example>, she is wrong.
If a woman is very beautiful and fears to be stared at, she covers her face.

Be safe.  :)

Quote from: Ahmad on February 19, 2012, 01:23 PM
No no, You should understand what I mean.
What I meant is that there are no restrictions between a man and his wife in dressing <That's in case you don't know that>
Of course, it's forbidden to hurt wives by any means. Men have to treat them very well and NOT to beat or abuse them. Our prophet <Peace be upon him and all prophets> ordered men to take very good care of their wives.

Quote from: Ahmad on February 19, 2012, 01:23 PM
I told you in the last post that the most important thing in women dressing is not to show more than face and hands and wear wide clothes not tight. It's allowed to cover face and hands as it is not mentioned to be forbidden... i.e.
If she doesn't cover them, she is right.
If she covers them, she is right.
If she doesn't cover part of her leg <for example>, she is wrong.
If a woman is very beautiful and fears to be stared at, she covers her face.

Pardon me, I realize you've probably explained this to me before, but I'm still confused. I've noticed there are women who use regular veils where you can see their face and hands. Others use the complete black outfit which shows only their eyes. Do I understand you correctly, or is her dress a matter of personal choice as opposed to something either written in law or part of the branch of Islam she practices? From what I've seen both here and on TV, most Islamic women use the regular veil which leaves their faces visible, yet only a small majority use the full black outfit (I forget the name). I've seen that in Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Jordan and others, their faces are unconvered - yet in Iran and Saudi Arabia almost all use the full black dress. I'm believing (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that the Shiite extremists of Iran and the Wahabi fanatics of Saudi Arabia force them to wear the full black dress, yet where these people are not in power (such as the countries I mentioned), most wear just the veil that shows their faces. Naturally if she is Egyptian (for example) and prefers to wear the full black dress, no problem there. Can you clarify this a little further for me, and explain why in Iran and Saudi almost none wear the regular veil?

As for being considered pretty, I understand customs are different all over the world, but here and in Europe I have yet to see a woman become upset if I've complimented her on her physical beauty. Let me give you and example: just the other day in Mexico my wife's niece recently hit puberty and is turning out to be a very nice looking young lady. When I saw her, I said to her in front of her parents "my god, you're becoming a very beautiful young lady; if I were 100 years younger I'd try to be your boyfriend". She smiled and thanked me, and so did her parents. Not only were they not offended, they were greatful! Do I understand you correctly, or is a thing like this, even with an adult woman, viewed as a sign of hostility in Islamic countries?

Pardon me for asking for clarification, but when we come from very different worlds, it's often not easy to understand the mindset of other cultures.

Take good care,
Humbert

Hello, dear friend  :)

Quote from: humb25 on February 25, 2012, 12:48 AM
Pardon me, I realize you've probably explained this to me before, but I'm still confused. I've noticed there are women who use regular veils where you can see their face and hands. Others use the complete black outfit which shows only their eyes. Do I understand you correctly, or is her dress a matter of personal choice as opposed to something either written in law or part of the branch of Islam she practices? From what I've seen both here and on TV, most Islamic women use the regular veil which leaves their faces visible, yet only a small majority use the full black outfit (I forget the name). I've seen that in Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Jordan and others, their faces are unconvered - yet in Iran and Saudi Arabia almost all use the full black dress. I'm believing (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that the Shiite extremists of Iran and the Wahabi fanatics of Saudi Arabia force them to wear the full black dress, yet where these people are not in power (such as the countries I mentioned), most wear just the veil that shows their faces. Naturally if she is Egyptian (for example) and prefers to wear the full black dress, no problem there. Can you clarify this a little further for me, and explain why in Iran and Saudi almost none wear the regular veil?

First, you pardon me.  :-[  I do my best to collect the appropriate words to make things clear, so forgive me if I can't make you get what I mean.

... I tell you what is in Islam <not show more than face and hands, and wear wide clothes. It doesn't matter veil or other. The important is to be wide and not showing her beauty, so if veil, then right. If the full black one, then right. If other wide not showing beauty or more than face and hands, then right. All of those are right and she chooses from them>.

... In Egypt, there is no law about women clothing. She wears what she wants. But true Muslim woman wears what I told you just for Allah <Because he said that>.
Also, in Egypt, you'll find all kinds of woman clothing that I mentioned ;;; veil, full black one, and the other wide one. But from what I've seen, the majority here is veil.

... For Iran and Saudi, really I don't know enough about there. But what I'm sure about is the regular veil is perfect. The full black one is not mentioned specifically and for that, I love Egypt and Azhar who made us understand Islam as it is <in justly balanced way> and follow the easier choice as long as it's not forbidden.
A woman wears the full black one if she wants that, or if she is beautiful so as not to be stared at. As here, we can't stare at adult woman.

Quote from: humb25 on February 25, 2012, 12:48 AM
As for being considered pretty, I understand customs are different all over the world, but here and in Europe I have yet to see a woman become upset if I've complimented her on her physical beauty. Let me give you and example: just the other day in Mexico my wife's niece recently hit puberty and is turning out to be a very nice looking young lady. When I saw her, I said to her in front of her parents "my god, you're becoming a very beautiful young lady; if I were 100 years younger I'd try to be your boyfriend". She smiled and thanked me, and so did her parents. Not only were they not offended, they were greatful! Do I understand you correctly, or is a thing like this, even with an adult woman, viewed as a sign of hostility in Islamic countries?

Here, it's close to this but in limits and according to conditions. For example:
If I have a niece who has recently hit puberty, all of us notice that she becomes more beautiful . I can simply say "You become a beautiful bride" but in front of her parents .
If a lone, then no because it's not normal to see a man and a woman alone and also it may lead to wrong understanding.
On the other side, I can't say to here "You have a beautiful body". This is not here.
Notice the difference between the 2 phrases.
To be more clear, here, there are some phrases known for people to be good and some known to be bad.

An other example, I can't say to a man's wife or an adult woman that she is beautiful. Here in Egypt, it's shame on the boy who said that and people say that he is a bad boy. Also, her husband won't accept that words and also won't accept his wife to be stared at.

Quote from: humb25 on February 25, 2012, 12:48 AM
Pardon me for asking for clarification, but when we come from very different worlds, it's often not easy to understand the mindset of other cultures.

You're absolutely right and this helps me to learn trying to see how others think, so thank you.
Be well and safe,
Ahmad.  :)

Quote from: Ahmad on February 25, 2012, 05:22 AM
First, you pardon me.  :-[  I do my best to collect the appropriate words to make things clear, so forgive me if I can't make you get what I mean.
... I tell you what is in Islam <not show more than face and hands, and wear wide clothes. It doesn't matter veil or other. The important is to be wide and not showing her beauty, so if veil, then right. If the full black one, then right. If other wide not showing beauty or more than face and hands, then right. All of those are right and she chooses from them>.
... In Egypt, there is no law about women clothing. She wears what she wants. But true Muslim woman wears what I told you just for Allah <Because he said that>.
Also, in Egypt, you'll find all kinds of woman clothing that I mentioned ;;; veil, full black one, and the other wide one. But from what I've seen, the majority here is veil.

OK, let me see if I get this straight once and for all. At least in Egypt (you're not too sure about other Islamic countries), the Islamic religion and not the law says a woman has her choice of either wearing a veil that shows her face and hands or, if she so desires the full black dress that only shows her eyes. We are talking a matter of personal choice only. Both must be baggy so as not to show if she has a good figure. Assuming this is the case, I suppose the only question is why would any woman wear the full black dress during the summer, where temperatures over there are well over 40°C. Then again, I suppose it's her decision which must be respected.

Regarding what I told you about my wife's niece, your answer makes perfect sense and, if said to her in front of her parents, there is no offense. Now that that's clear, let's go on to adult women. Suppose you met a very pretty Egyptian lady your age or older somewhere. Would it be proper to simply start a polite chat with her? Would she actually become upset if after a while you told her she was beautiful AND had a nice figure, or would she consider this offensive? I'm asking because, as I told you before, in absolutely every place I've chatted with a lady and went so far as to tell her these 2 things, in my cultures (American and Latin) not once have I encountered a situation where the woman became upset, on the contrary, they smiled and thanked me. Naturally I refer only to my comments on her looks, never did I say something like "let's go to bed" because that probably would be considered offensive. From my perspective, telling her I believe she's beautiful and inviting her for sex constitute 2 very different things. How is it over there? Also, be advised when I said "over there", are we talking about the Arab culture or the Islamic religion? As you of course know, although many people in the world tend to equate them, they are by no means the same thing. As you of course know, the largest Islamic countries in terms of population are not located in the Middle East and similarly, these people are Muslims but not Arabs.

I think a response to this would pretty much clear this up for me, and I can finally get a handle on all this. You can't begin to believe how different cultures in this world can be. What one culture considers anathema is perfectly fine somewhere else, and accordingly making innocent mistakes is easy. As a quick example, I learned that over there (not sure if this is Arab or Islamic), shaking a woman's hand is considered highly improper. Here it's totally the other way around -- not shaking a woman's hand if you just met her is a sign of bad manners.
See my point?

Take care,
Humbert  ;)

Quote from: humb25 on February 25, 2012, 07:37 PM
OK, let me see if I get this straight once and for all. At least in Egypt (you're not too sure about other Islamic countries), the Islamic religion and not the law says a woman has her choice of either wearing a veil that shows her face and hands or, if she so desires the full black dress that only shows her eyes. We are talking a matter of personal choice only. Both must be baggy so as not to show if she has a good figure. Assuming this is the case, I suppose the only question is why would any woman wear the full black dress during the summer, where temperatures over there are well over 40°C. Then again, I suppose it's her decision which must be respected.

Yes, you're right in this understanding. Islam religion says that she should wear baggy clothes, not transparent, not showing more than face and hands. Islam doesn't specify a particular kind of clothing. If any clothing does the mentioned required job, then it's OK.
So, it was taken from previous generations that veil is an appropriate one as it does the job.

Regarding in Summer, I think each woman does what she is assured with.
As you know, she has many choices and she picks the one that she is convinced with and then she becomes used with it.
For me, I love the veil or any baggy non transparent clothing showing no more than face and hands.
If a woman is very beautiful, her husband becomes so afraid that she'll be stared at. So, he asks her to cover her face if she can do this for him to be more assured.
As here, when a woman is married, she is only for her husband and he is only for her.

Quote from: humb25 on February 25, 2012, 07:37 PM
Suppose you met a very pretty Egyptian lady your age or older somewhere. Would it be proper to simply start a polite chat with her? Would she actually become upset if after a while you told her she was beautiful AND had a nice figure, or would she consider this offensive?

This is forbidden in Islam. So, simply, people avoid this as much as they can. But some guys do that and then they've made a mistake and they know.
If a woman is a true Muslim woman, she'll be upset with those words because she knows that this is forbidden. If other Muslim woman who doesn't stick to Islam instructions strongly, she may not be upset with those words.
But here, no guy says those words to a woman wearing veil <for example> because he knows that she won't accept that.
Also, no man accepts a guy saying those words to his wife or his sister. It's a very sensitive matter here.

Conclusion:
Talking to a stranger woman should be in necessity like in work <for example>.
And this talking shouldn't be chatting. <Go directly to the point>

Shaking woman's hands is not preferred here. You'd better say Hello.
It may have a reason ;;; If a man want to pray, he washes himself (do Ablution before praying). If he shakes a woman's hands, he should do Ablution again to pray.
So, old people are used with not shaking women's hands and then the next generations and so on...

Be well and safe.
:D

Quote from: Ahmad on February 26, 2012, 03:53 AM
Yes, you're right in this understanding. Islam religion says that she should wear baggy clothes, not transparent, not showing more than face and hands. Islam doesn't specify a particular kind of clothing. If any clothing does the mentioned required job, then it's OK.
So, it was taken from previous generations that veil is an appropriate one as it does the job.

OK, understood. It's just a religious thing.

Quote from: Ahmad on February 26, 2012, 03:53 AM
If a woman is very beautiful, her husband becomes so afraid that she'll be stared at. So, he asks her to cover her face if she can do this for him to be more assured.
As here, when a woman is married, she is only for her husband and he is only for her.

The concept of monogamy is certainly not new, it's been around forever -- and so has adultery. Be that as it may, while jealousy is by no means restricted to the Arab or Islamic world, from what I'm seeing it's a little more "extreme" (for lack of a better word) over there, and I'm under the impression it's more of a cultural thing. Speaking personally, I'd be flattered if another man found my wife beautiful, but not all men think that way. Naturally I refer to my 2 cultures.

Quote from: Ahmad on February 26, 2012, 03:53 AM
This is forbidden in Islam. So, simply, people avoid this as much as they can. But some guys do that and then they've made a mistake and they know.
If a woman is a true Muslim woman, she'll be upset with those words because she knows that this is forbidden. If other Muslim woman who doesn't stick to Islam instructions strongly, she may not be upset with those words.
But here, no guy says those words to a woman wearing veil <for example> because he knows that she won't accept that.
Also, no man accepts a guy saying those words to his wife or his sister. It's a very sensitive matter here.
Conclusion:
Talking to a stranger woman should be in necessity like in work <for example>.
And this talking shouldn't be chatting. <Go directly to the point>

Given all this, then please explain to me how Egyptian men and women court each other There must be some sort of acceptable form of courtship, otherwise there will simply be no reproduction and hence no more Egyptians. Or is it that marriages are arranged by the parents (or something like that)?

Quote from: Ahmad on February 26, 2012, 03:53 AM
Shaking woman's hands is not preferred here. You'd better say Hello.
It may have a reason ;;; If a man want to pray, he washes himself (do Ablution before praying). If he shakes a woman's hands, he should do Ablution again to pray.
So, old people are used with not shaking women's hands and then the next generations and so on...

This that you explained, again are we talking something religious or cultural? Also, why does a man have to do Ablution again to pray if he touches a woman? Are women considered unclean? I can understand a cultural or religious prohibition against shaking hands, but what I can't figure out is the reason for another ablution.

Thanks for answering all my questions so openly. It's the only way to learn.  :)

Quote from: humb25 on February 27, 2012, 06:12 AM
Speaking personally, I'd be flattered if another man found my wife beautiful, but not all men think that way. Naturally I refer to my 2 cultures.

This is not here. If you tell a man here that his wife is beautiful, he'll be angry.

Quote from: humb25 on February 27, 2012, 06:12 AM
Given all this, then please explain to me how Egyptian men and women court each other There must be some sort of acceptable form of courtship, otherwise there will simply be no reproduction and hence no more Egyptians. Or is it that marriages are arranged by the parents (or something like that)?

Courtship is happening here all the time and by many ways as not all people do exactly what Islam says and life goes on.
But an appropriate way is: suppose you meet a woman you like. You simply can ask her about her address to meet her parents. Then you can engage her and know each other. If you can't understand each other, you can leave each other and this happens frequently without being broken.

Quote from: humb25 on February 27, 2012, 06:12 AM
Are women considered unclean? I can understand a cultural or religious prohibition against shaking hands, but what I can't figure out is the reason for another ablution.

No, it is not like that especially in ablution. It's a religious thing that has no thinking.
But this may clarify;;

In Islam, ablution <We call it "Wudoo"> is washing some body parts in a special arrangement. <It's very fast>
So, even if a man is very clean, he must do ablution before praying.

There are some things that invalidates wudoo <requires re-doing wudoo>. From them is touching a stranger woman and getting aroused <by shaking hands without glove>. There is another saying that any touching to a stranger woman invalidates wudoo <it doesn't matter you get aroused or not>.
So, people take precautions and do wudoo again when shaking woman hands.
But some people prefer not to shake woman hands at all to avoid getting aroused and think badly. So, it doesn't mean that woman is unclean but for protection of wudoo as it is not just washing and cleaning but it has a wisdom known by Allah.

BTW, if you follow any of the two previous sayings, you're right.... i.e:
It happened to me before to meet a relative woman when going to pray. She wants to shake hands, so I simply did and went to pray without re-doing wudoo and I'm right because I didn't get aroused. If I re-did wudoo <for precautions> , I would be right either. <Even better>
Anyway, every time you do wudoo, you have mercy from Allah, so people love this wudoo.

Another info; When we have more than 1 saying in a situation in Islam, if you do any saying from them, you'll be right because this is an important rule in Islam to make it easy <not extreme> and this rule is "Mercy of the difference" on condition that this saying has evidence from our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets> or his companions doing so.
So, I always love to take the easier one and Allah is at the expectations of the person. So, I expect he will accept, so he <the merciful> accepts.

Have an excellent life,
Your friend.  :)

Quote from: Ahmad on February 27, 2012, 10:17 AM
Courtship is happening here all the time and by many ways as not all people do exactly what Islam says and life goes on.
But an appropriate way is: suppose you meet a woman you like. You simply can ask her about her address to meet her parents. Then you can engage her and know each other. If you can't understand each other, you can leave each other and this happens frequently without being broken.

Of course courtship is happening all the time  :). I refuse to believe that all 90 million Egyptians came from artificial insemination or in-vitro fertilization  ;). Your explanation is fine, but how far do local customs allow you to go? For example, if you found a girl you liked and asked to visit her house and meet her parents, after that's done can you now take her out to <for example> a coffee shop or a movie without a chaperone? Can there be a situation where you two are alone and, if so, what if you wanted to hold her hand and kiss her (or vice versa)? What are the local customs concerning this?

Quote from: humb25 on February 27, 2012, 06:12 AM
Are women considered unclean? I can understand a cultural or religious prohibition against shaking hands, but what I can't figure out is the reason for another ablution.

Quote from: Ahmad on February 27, 2012, 10:17 AM
No, it is not like that especially in ablution. It's a religious thing that has no thinking.
But this may clarify;;
In Islam, ablution <We call it "Wudoo"> is washing some body parts in a special arrangement. <It's very fast>
So, even if a man is very clean, he must do ablution before praying.

I'm familiar with Wudoo because Maher explained it to me. What I didn't know what that, according to Islam, simply touching a woman invalidates it. As you explained, it's a religious commandment that's just there and has no explanation

Quote from: Ahmad on February 27, 2012, 10:17 AM
It happened to me before to meet a relative woman when going to pray. She wants to shake hands, so I simply did and went to pray without re-doing wudoo and I'm right because I didn't get aroused. If I re-did wudoo <for precautions> , I would be right either. <Even better>
Anyway, every time you do wudoo, you have mercy from Allah, so people love this wudoo.

A woman wanted to shake your hand? I thought this was forbidden. Then again, you mention she was a relative. Are female relatives exempt from this rule?

You know, I went to the pharmacy the other day and right in front of me was a woman wearing an Islamic veil. Naturally my curiosity got the best of me, and I promptly remembered everything both you and Maher warned me what to do and what NOT to do. Keeping a safe distance of 2 meters or more, I asked her if she was Sunni. When she said "no", I responded, "you are not Muslim", to which she responded, "oh, I misunderstood you, I thought you were referring to a girl's name. Yes, I am Sunni." Finally I asked her where she was originally from, and she said "Jerusalem", to which I replied, "oh, Palestine" (being extremely careful not to say "Israel" instead). We then said goodbye. She was very nice and not the slightest bit offended.

I do have a question, though. Although she was wearing a baggy, long sleeved blouse together with a white veil, she was also wearing blue jeans, which showed her figure (not very pretty, I might add). My question -- was she in violation of the Islamic female dress code because of this?

Quote from: humb25 on February 29, 2012, 09:01 PM
Your explanation is fine, but how far do local customs allow you to go? For example, if you found a girl you liked and asked to visit her house and meet her parents, after that's done can you now take her out to <for example> a coffee shop or a movie without a chaperone? Can there be a situation where you two are alone and, if so, what if you wanted to hold her hand and kiss her (or vice versa)? What are the local customs concerning this?

If you're asking about local customs, It happens that he takes her out without a chaperone and he holds her hands but NO kissing.

For people who stick well to Islam, she can't be alone with him without chaperone.

In every society, you'll see every type of everything but there is a most common thing which is local custom.

Quote from: humb25 on February 29, 2012, 09:01 PM
A woman wanted to shake your hand? I thought this was forbidden. Then again, you mention she was a relative. Are female relatives exempt from this rule?

In local customs, shaking woman's hands happens normally. But In Islam, it's either not preferred or not allowed <Really I don't know the exact rule about that in Islam as it is not such big like kissing for example but what I'm sure about is that it's better not to do>.

When I say a stranger woman, it means every woman I can marry, whether she is a relative or not.

I want to clarify something ;;;
Here, when the thing is extremely forbidden <A big sin>, you'll never see any Muslim doing it in public like kissing a stranger woman for example or adultery which is a very big sin. Even local customs will never accept it and all people know that it's a big sin.
But if it's a small sin, then many people may not even know that it is a sin and they do it normally as they don't know and then, you may see it in local customs.

But once the person knows that something is a sin even if it is small, he should avoid it immediately, because Allah was forgiving him as he didn't know but now he knows.

Quote from: humb25 on February 29, 2012, 09:01 PM
I do have a question, though. Although she was wearing a baggy, long sleeved blouse together with a white veil, she was also wearing blue jeans, which showed her figure (not very pretty, I might add). My question -- was she in violation of the Islamic female dress code because of this?

Yes, she must wear baggy, non transparent clothes from head to foot with the exception of face and hands. It is not correct to wear baggy above and tight below !!!   ???

Quote from: Ahmad on March 01, 2012, 05:34 AM
If you're asking about local customs, It happens that he takes her out without a chaperone and he holds her hands but NO kissing.
For people who stick well to Islam, she can't be alone with him without chaperone.
In every society, you'll see every type of everything but there is a most common thing which is local custom.
In local customs, shaking woman's hands happens normally. But In Islam, it's either not preferred or not allowed <Really I don't know the exact rule about that in Islam as it is not such big like kissing for example but what I'm sure about is that it's better not to do>.

I'm glad in this post (and hopefully from now on) you'll clarify for me what rules are based on local customs and which are based on religious beliefs. To me this distinction is absolutely critical due to the simple fact that just about everywhere you go, you'll find that the 2 clash. Not only that, in all religions some people follow it to a greater degree than others. A simple example -- in the Catholic religion, birth control is not allowed. However, easily 80% of Catholics do not follow this rule, and I don't mean just where I live.

Quote from: Ahmad on March 01, 2012, 12:14 PM
I want to clarify something ;;;
Here, when the thing is extremely forbidden <A big sin>, you'll never see any Muslim doing it in public like kissing a stranger woman for example or adultery which is a very big sin. Even local customs will never accept it and all people know that it's a big sin.
But if it's a small sin, then many people may not even know that it is a sin and they do it normally as they don't know and then, you may see it in local customs.

You mentioned something interesting. OK, I accept the fact that in Egypt, public kissing between men and women is unacceptable, both in local customs and religiously. Let me ask you this question since you've opened the door for me. I ask because I know and respect your deep Islamic convictions, but at the same time you're a flesh and blood human being with hormones circulating in your bloodstream. Have you ever met a girl about your age that you were attracted to and, of course, she to you? I don't know the answer, but let's say in this example that you did. You asked for and obtained permission to visit her parent's house and were liked by them, to the point that they had no objection to your taking her out without a chaperone to <for example> a restaurant for dinner. During the conversation both of you begin to feel very strongly attracted to each other. You smile at each other and hold hands, slowly ever tighter. The meal is over, it is night and somehow you and her find a private place where no one is watching. Both of you have hormones raging and want to just hug and kiss each other passionately. Let's stop here for a second. I can assure you of one thing -- in a situation like this [to explain it medically], your lymbic system (and hers) will take over and overwhelm the frontal cortex. This is no sin, crime or offense -- it is simply being human. Has something like this happened to you, or if not, to a trusted friend you know?

I might add that finding a place all to yourselves in a crowded city like Cairo would be difficult. But then again, you don't live there.

Let me know because I'm curious, especially given the fact that it was precisely Allah who made you (and her) this way. In fact, without these situations there would probably be no procreation, with the exception of an arranged marriage (not much fun).

Take great care my friend
Humbert  ;)

Quote from: humb25 on March 02, 2012, 06:16 AM
Has something like this happened to you, or if not, to a trusted friend you know?

NO, it didn't happen neither to me nor any friend. But, I won't tell that it doesn't happen here.

Quote from: humb25 on March 02, 2012, 06:16 AM
Let me know because I'm curious, especially given the fact that it was precisely Allah who made you (and her) this way. In fact, without these situations there would probably be no procreation, with the exception of an arranged marriage (not much fun).

I'm with you that Allah made us this way [Human flesh and blood with hormones, feelings and desires] BUT for testing, differentiate people's degrees and forgiveness. >>>  He didn't create us in vain, but for purpose.

He made us weak against what we want to do >> to see who will overcome his desires and train himself to do what Allah wants, not himself >>  And this one will be great and beloved by Allah.
Also to see who can't overcome his desires and does mistakes >> if he regrets what he has done, asks for forgiveness and decide not to do that again >> this one is also great and beloved from Allah on condition that he truly won't do that sin again.

So, we live in a big difficult test but also the prize is so expensive and valuable from Allah and believe me when a person prevents himself from doing what he wants just to do what Allah wants >> That's because of Allah who has endeared the faith to us, and has made it beautiful in our hearts, and he has made hateful to us unbelief and wrongdoing.

Another thing regarding your question is that Allah from the beginning ordered us not to be alone with a stranger woman so as not to fall in what you know <kissing and finally adultery> because he knows that we are weak because he made us.

What you've said is a gradual approach with a gradual increase in sin and all of this begins with being a lone with a stranger woman. So, if we do what Allah told us and avoid being a lone with a stranger woman, it won't reach that limit of being very attracted and aroused. So, the man brings that to himself. Why doesn't he be patient till marriage ?!!  and why doesn't he just do what Allah wants ?!!  What will harm him in that ?!!
I see that man is, in most things, contentious and arguing ;; no more.

But also here in local customs <which allows getting out together>, every guy/girl knows his/her limits that must not be approached even if alone and even if he/she doesn't know about religion.

Conclusion:
I feel like any man towards women but if I avoid what Allah told me to avoid, It'll be easy.
If I approach more, It'll be difficult and I may sin.
If I sin, then I ask for forgiveness and I'll get it but not do that again.
If I sin and don't care, do what you want now but after that, don't ask to be treated like those who struggle.

Quote from: humb25 on March 02, 2012, 06:16 AM
somehow you and her find a private place where no one is watching.

Then, where is Allah ?!!  Believe me, we are very aware that Allah is watching.

Quote from: humb25 on March 02, 2012, 06:16 AM
I might add that finding a place all to yourselves in a crowded city like Cairo would be difficult. But then again, you don't live there.

Even if a lone in a desert, and even if I want that inside me, I never love to do that !!!

Although I have those feelings, hormones and desire, I'm very aware that if I did that, I'll gain nothing but regret and sadness after that.
I'm not saying that I don't sin. I have many sins but not those big ones and I ask Allah to help me never fall in one of them and forgive my small ones because, really, I love not to sin ever. But Only the prophets are so !!

Sorry for this long speech, but to be clear as possible.
Take care.  :) ;) :D

Quote from: Ahmad on March 02, 2012, 08:56 PM
Sorry for this long speech, but to be clear as possible.
Take care.  :) ;) :D

Not a problem. You explained everything clearly, which is what I was looking for.

Let me ask you something else -- what exactly is the Islamic view of polygamy? Let me explain why I'm asking. Back in 1937, Ibin Saud managed to unify all 7 kingdoms of the Arabian peninsula creating what is today Saudi Arabia (he renamed the country after his family). In the process, King Saud married all 7 princesses (or queens, not exactly sure) of the other kingdoms. I've also heard stories of some Arab/Islamic men having more than one wife. Naturally in every case we're talking rich men since obviously having many wives (and their children) costs plenty of money. I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that even the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) had more than one wife, and in fact condemned celibacy.

What, then, is the religion's official policy on this topic?

Quote from: humb25 on March 05, 2012, 06:14 AM
Let me ask you something else -- what exactly is the Islamic view of polygamy? Let me explain why I'm asking. Back in 1937, Ibin Saud managed to unify all 7 kingdoms of the Arabian peninsula creating what is today Saudi Arabia (he renamed the country after his family). In the process, King Saud married all 7 princesses (or queens, not exactly sure) of the other kingdoms. I've also heard stories of some Arab/Islamic men having more than one wife. Naturally in every case we're talking rich men since obviously having many wives (and their children) costs plenty of money. I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that even the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) had more than one wife, and in fact condemned celibacy.

What, then, is the religion's official policy on this topic?

First, I don't know those things about King Saud !!
Second, I'm not expert about these details in Islam religion, but what I & everyone know in The Holy Qur'an is :

In Islam, a man can have up to 4 wives at the same time, ON CONDITION
He can afford that and he will treat them fairly.... i.e. >>  never differentiate between them in treatment or gifts. ALL are the same to him.

Regarding our prophet Muhammad <Peace be upon him and all the prophets>, He is a special case in that <He has some special Characteristics only to him not to others>. He had more than 4 wives, but by the order of Allah and for purposes. After that, Allah ordered him not to marry any other woman and said to us that it's extremely forbidden to marry his wives after his death. <This is in The Holy Qur'an>

Regarding celibacy, Our prophet told us this:
If a guy can marry >>> then, marry.
If a guy can NOT marry >>> then, does his best in fasting <Fasting like in month, Ramadan when we do NOT eat or drink or doing copulation between a husband and his wife from dawn to sunset>.

Be well and safe, dear friend.  :) :D

Quote from: Ahmad on March 05, 2012, 09:01 AM
First, I don't know those things about King Saud !! [regarding having 7 wives]
Second, I'm not expert about these details in Islam religion, but what I & everyone know in The Holy Qur'an is :
In Islam, a man can have up to 4 wives at the same time, ON CONDITION
He can afford that and he will treat them fairly.... i.e. >>  never differentiate between them in treatment or gifts. ALL are the same to him.

As certainly you're aware, in Islam even the King must follow the Holy Qur'an and the rules dictated there. But also as you know, like all religions, Islam is subdivided into different "branches" (for lack of a better words). While the Saudis are Sunnis, they (or at least the Saud family) belongs to a branch known as the Wahabis, which if famous for their strict laws. Notice, for example, that there is no religious police in Egypt, while that's certainly not the case in Saudi Arabia. I'm thinking the Wahabis believe a man can have as many wives as he can afford. In fact, notice that when I asked you the question originally, I specifically mentioned "rich men", clearly meaning that he must be able to provide for them in every way. Also, always keep in mind the fact that I know you're not an expert in Islam, you simply belong to the religion. It is impossible to anyone to respond to a question to which he doesn't know the answer.

Quote from: Ahmad on March 05, 2012, 09:01 AM
Regarding our prophet Muhammad <Peace be upon him and all the prophets>, He is a special case in that <He has some special Characteristics only to him not to others>. He had more than 4 wives, but by the order of Allah and for purposes. After that, Allah ordered him not to marry any other woman and said to us that it's extremely forbidden to marry his wives after his death. <This is in The Holy Qur'an>

I don't fully understand something. Are you saying married women cannot re-marry if their husbands die?

Quote from: Ahmad on March 05, 2012, 09:01 AM
Regarding celibacy, Our prophet told us this:
If a guy can marry >>> then, marry.
If a guy can NOT marry >>> then, does his best in fasting <Fasting like in month, Ramadan when we do NOT eat or drink or doing copulation between a husband and his wife from dawn to sunset>.

This is a serious question and not a joke. During Ramadan at night, if a guy for whatever reason gets aroused, since he's not permitted to be with his wife sexually, can he just go to the bathroom and relieve himself -- or would he have to hold off until sunrise?

Another thing -- does Islam specifically prohibit sex outside of marriage? Here, the vast majority of people are Christian (combining all it's different branches). Many if not all of those brances have that rule -- the only thing is that here nobody obeys it.  :)

Quote from: Ahmad on March 05, 2012, 09:01 AM
Be well and safe, dear friend.  :) :D

Absolutely -- same to you!  :)

First, It has been a long time, dear friend.  :(
Anyway, nice to hear from you again.  :) :D

Quote from: humb25 on March 11, 2012, 11:59 PM
I'm thinking the Wahabis believe a man can have as many wives as he can afford

I'm sure Wahabis are NOT so.
Because, all Sunni Muslims CAN'T differ in a big case like that. They differ from each other in only small things <a man like me can't notice these changes>.
And this which gives us free choice to do any of them and we'll be right <Mercy of the Difference rule>. I told you about this rule before here:
http://www.nomaher.com/forum/index.php?topic=366.msg2923#msg2923

But in how many wives ??!!  It's so obvious in the Holy Qur'an.

But as I told you, I'm not expert. I heard before that there are special rare cases when a man can have more than 4 women but only 4 of them are wives and the others are in less degree <not called wife>. But these cases are very rare and not seen anymore because they require special conditions.... <may be slavery or prisoner of war... not sure>
But really, I can't tell in this because I don't know enough about it. I only heard about it before but can't remember exactly. So king Saud may be right.

There is another thing to clarify. To be rich is not enough to marry more than one. You must keep in mind that you have to treat them fairly. No minimum difference between them. If you can't do that <It's a big responsibility>, marry only one so as not to be a sinner.

Who I know that they are very away from us <even not from us as Muslims> are some branches of Shiite like in Iran and the president of Syria "Bashar". They have illusions in their head. <not from The Holy Qur'an or from what our prophet said>

Quote from: humb25 on March 11, 2012, 11:59 PM
I don't fully understand something. Are you saying married women cannot re-marry if their husbands die?

NO.  Of course they can marry.
It's a special case, only for our prophet's wives. Allah ordered our prophet not to marry other than them and said that it's extremely forbidden for them to marry after his death and also said that when they married our prophet, they became like our mothers.
And a man can't marry his mother.

Quote from: humb25 on March 11, 2012, 11:59 PM
This is a serious question and not a joke. During Ramadan at night, if a guy for whatever reason gets aroused, since he's not permitted to be with his wife sexually

In Ramadan, we hold from just before sunrise <dawn> till sunset. After that <during night>, a man can be with his wife sexually as usual. But when dawn comes, we hold again till sunset.

Quote from: humb25 on March 11, 2012, 11:59 PM
Another thing -- does Islam specifically prohibit sex outside of marriage?

YES.  No sex outside of marriage.

Peace.  :) :D

Quote from: Ahmad on March 12, 2012, 03:51 AM
I'm sure Wahabis are NOT so.
Because, all Sunni Muslims CAN'T differ in a big case like that. They differ from each other in only small things <a man like me can't notice these changes>.
And this which gives us free choice to do any of them and we'll be right <Mercy of the Difference rule>. I told you about this rule before here:
http://www.nomaher.com/forum/index.php?topic=366.msg2923#msg2923
But as I told you, I'm not expert. I heard before that there are special rare cases when a man can have more than 4 women but only 4 of them are wives and the others are in less degree <not called wife>. But these cases are very rare and not seen anymore because they require special conditions.... <may be slavery or prisoner of war... not sure>
But really, I can't tell in this because I don't know enough about it. I only heard about it before but can't remember exactly. So king Saud may be right.

As for King Saud, I'd speculate that his was a political decision much more than a religious one, since I believe it was the only way he could unite the Arabian peninsula under his family. Then again, religiously speaking the King may have been what the Catholic bishops here call a "pick and choose Catholic", only Muslim in his case. Basically what the bishops are mad about is the fact that the vast majority of Catholics follow some rules of their religion but not all. It's very common and acceptable here for an unmarried couple living together to go to Church every Sunday, despite the fact that their religion specifically prohibits it. Of course I mentioned the example of my Libyan friend who had been in a mosque earlier that Friday and I found him at a bar that same night drinking alcohol. This sort of thing is common in all religions, not just the ones I mentioned. While I have never traveled anywhere in North Africa or the Middle East, I can absolutely guarantee that not all Egyptian muslims pray 5 times a day.

Quote from: Ahmad on March 12, 2012, 03:51 AM
In Ramadan, we hold from just before sunrise <dawn> till sunset. After that <during night>, a man can be with his wife sexually as usual. But when dawn comes, we hold again till sunset.

I'm a little confused here. Is it during the DAY that you're not permitted to eat (forget the sex part for a second), or is it at night? Or do we have a case where there are things you can do during the day (such as eat), and things permitted only at night (such as being with your wife)?

Thanks for all the answers and generally for being so patient with me.

Take great care,
Humbert

Quote from: humb25 on March 17, 2012, 12:39 AM
Then again, religiously speaking the King may have been what the Catholic bishops here call a "pick and choose Catholic", only Muslim in his case.

Believe me, we don't have such things in Islam.
Everyone from the king to the least one are under Islam orders.
No one can do anything outside that saying that he is a king or a man of religion or whatever because Islam orders are so clear for all.
We can only choose between things which we have more than one saying about, and all these things are small <not big like how many wives>. Also those small things must have been approved by our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets> so as to do any of them.

So, king Saud can't marry more than 4 wives at the same time saying he is the king !!
He is obligated with Islam orders. If he does other than that, he is a big sinner.
EXCEPT for those rare cases I told about.

Quote from: humb25 on March 17, 2012, 12:39 AM
Of course I mentioned the example of my Libyan friend who had been in a mosque earlier that Friday and I found him at a bar that same night drinking alcohol. This sort of thing is common in all religions, not just the ones I mentioned. While I have never traveled anywhere in North Africa or the Middle East, I can absolutely guarantee that not all Egyptian muslims pray 5 times a day.

Of course I'm with you in this. Everyone <except prophets> is a sinner, big or small. And he can't avoid to be a sinner. Also here, many people don't even pray 5 times a day and some drink alcohol and some steal. However, no one of them can marry more than 4 wives because everyone of them knows clearly that it's so big sin. Even this is not present on their minds to think about !!

But finally I say that this happens like any other sin, but very rare.
Regarding king Saud, really I don't know about his conditions. So he might be right. And I can't say anything wrong about him because if I say something bad that is not in him or in anyone, I'll be a big sinner. So forgive me about this.

Quote from: humb25 on March 17, 2012, 12:39 AM
I'm a little confused here. Is it during the DAY that you're not permitted to eat (forget the sex part for a second), or is it at night?

It is during NIGHT that we are permitted to eat and drink and a man can be with his wife sexually.

Quote from: humb25 on March 17, 2012, 12:39 AM
Thanks for all the answers and generally for being so patient with me.

Anytime, dear friend.  :D

Be well and safe.
:) ;) :D

Quote from: Ahmad on March 17, 2012, 06:43 AM
Believe me, we don't have such things in Islam.
Everyone from the king to the least one are under Islam orders.
No one can do anything outside that saying that he is a king or a man of religion or whatever because Islam orders are so clear for all.
We can only choose between things which we have more than one saying about, and all these things are small <not big like how many wives>. Also those small things must have been approved by our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets> so as to do any of them.

Please keep in mind that when I said that the King may have been a "pick and choose" Muslim, I never said or implied that was he did was correct under rules stated in the Holy Qur'an. This is precisely the argument the Bishops have here. They're saying exactly what you're saying -- that as a Catholic it is illegal to simply decide what laws you want to obey and discard those you don't. Naturally, my Libyan friends falls under the same category, and he too is Muslim. See my point? As I said before, he might have decided to purposely disobey the Qur'an for political reasons.

Quote from: Ahmad on March 17, 2012, 06:43 AM
It is during NIGHT that we are permitted to eat and drink and a man can be with his wife sexually.

As you're aware, the sexual part of this is the easy part -- anyone can be without sex for 12 hours or more without sacrifice. What I find hard to understand is the eating and drinking part. For example, do you set your alarm clock real early so you can get up for a strong breakfast before sunrise? If you work or go to school, must you also do so during Ramadan even if you can't eat or drink water? If so, it must take quite a bit of sacrifice  ???. Also, do Muslims determine day and night the way the Jews do? In their religion, the next day begins as sunset. They simply go to any weather web site (as I just did) and look at the time the sun will set (or rise). For example, if I were Jewish and tomorrow were an important holiday where sacrifices must be made, I now know that the sun here will set at 19:45, and it is that time I have to keep an eye on my watch for. It may seem a little late, but keep in mind we just changed over to DST (time 1 hour ahead in summer). BTW, do you also have DST in Egypt?

Quote from: Ahmad on March 17, 2012, 06:43 AM
Anytime, dear friend.  :D

Many, many thanks for your answers.

Take care,
Humbert

Quote from: humb25 on March 20, 2012, 12:39 AM
I never said or implied that was he did was correct under rules stated in the Holy Qur'an.

OK, understood.  :)

Quote from: humb25 on March 20, 2012, 12:39 AM
Naturally, my Libyan friends falls under the same category, and he too is Muslim. See my point? As I said before, he might have decided to purposely disobey the Qur'an for political reasons.

Since everyone knows the good and the bad, he is free of choice to do what he wants now <either good or bad>. But, there is a certain day for gaining the results of his work !!
So, he'd better be wise and pick the good.

Quote from: humb25 on March 20, 2012, 12:39 AM
What I find hard to understand is the eating and drinking part. For example, do you set your alarm clock real early so you can get up for a strong breakfast before sunrise? If you work or go to school, must you also do so during Ramadan even if you can't eat or drink water? If so, it must take quite a bit of sacrifice  ???. Also, do Muslims determine day and night the way the Jews do? In their religion, the next day begins as sunset.

FIRST, the day to us starts just before Sunrise with about 1 Hour & 30 Min.
This time is the time of Dawn, when we have a pray from the 5 prays to do daily called "Dawn pray". And the day ends with Sunset when we also have a "Sunset pray" and then, the night starts and lasts till the time of Dawn.

We know the time of Sunrise and Sunset from any weather website. Also, we have here, in every house, a calender with those important times of praying and sunset and sunrise every day during the whole year.

Regarding your question about a strong breakfast, yes. We set our alarm clock to getup before Dawn and eat something and drink. It doesn't matter whether it's a strong or weak breakfast. Anything to eat and drink will help a lot, especially Dates <kind of fruit>.
But it's important to eat and drink before dawn, as our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets> recommended that to us and he was doing so.

Regarding sacrifice, really we become used to fast.
It's only the first day of fasting when we feel some tire. But after that it's so normal.
Ramadan is the best month to Allah and it's the time of patience and doing our best in praying to Allah. And for Allah, it's a time <but not the only time> of great mercy and forgiveness.

Really, we wish that the whole year is Ramadan as we feel great comfort and relief inside our souls during it.

Quote from: humb25 on March 20, 2012, 12:39 AM
BTW, do you also have DST in Egypt?

We had it until the last year. It was cancelled after the revolution. I don't know why, but I'm glad because I was hating changing the time.
Even Microsoft has updated that in Windows XP ;;; When I installed Maher's October release, I found that they have hidden the checkbox of "Automatically adjust clock for daylight saving changes" in "Time Zone" tab when I adjust it to Cairo.

Quote from: humb25 on March 20, 2012, 12:39 AM
Many, many thanks for your answers.

Again, anytime, dear friend.  ;)

Be always well and safe.
:) :D

Quote from: Ahmad on March 20, 2012, 09:45 AM
FIRST, the day to us starts just before Sunrise with about 1 Hour & 30 Min.
This time is the time of Dawn, when we have a pray from the 5 prays to do daily called "Dawn pray". And the day ends with Sunset when we also have a "Sunset pray" and then, the night starts and lasts till the time of Dawn.
We know the time of Sunrise and Sunset from any weather website. Also, we have here, in every house, a calender with those important times of praying and sunset and sunrise every day during the whole year.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. Let's suppose you knew sunrise would be at 06:30 (just to name an hour). Does this mean that the day begins at 05:00? If this were during Ramadan, does this mean you must eat your breakfast before 05:00 (never after) and say your dawn prayers between 05:00 and 06:30? What about any other month outside of Ramadan? While I understand that there are no restrictions as far as when to eat, must you still get up well before 06:30 to pray?

Also, about how long does a typical prayer session take? I remember asking our fearless leader what exactly did prayer consist of, and he responded by saying that basically it's a combination of reading from the Holy Qur'an and asking Allah for things pretty much on your own. What I forgot to ask him was to give me an idea of how much time it takes. I'm asking because, if we're talking [for example] 20 minutes, then clearly you don't have to get up as early as 05:00. Also, is dusk or night based on the same principle? Assuming the sun will set tonight at 19:00, during Ramadan must you wait until that hour to eat something, or can you eat as early as 17:30? Must dusk prayers also happen between 17:30 and 19:00?

Quote from: Ahmad on March 20, 2012, 09:45 AM
Regarding your question about a strong breakfast, yes. We set our alarm clock to getup before Dawn and eat something and drink. It doesn't matter whether it's a strong or weak breakfast. Anything to eat and drink will help a lot, especially Dates <kind of fruit>.
But it's important to eat and drink before dawn, as our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets> recommended that to us and he was doing so.

I'm familiar with dates, in fact if I wanted one, all I'd have to do is go to a supermarket about 2 km away from my house and buy it. I asked my wife and she tells me they're even available in Mexico, the only thing is that there, by simple local custom, they are mostly eaten during Christmas time. In case you're not familiar, Christians believe they are celebrating the birthday of Jesus. Of course I know that in actuality this isn't right -- nowhere in the Christian Bible does it state Jesus' birthday. The day was chosen because when their missionaries were trying to convert pagans in Northern Europe, the learned that the winter solstice was very important to them simply because it was the time the days would start to get longer and free them from constant darkness. The missionaries conveniently told them "Our Lord was also born on the winter solstice" for no other reason that to make it easier to convert them. The only problem was that at the time, their calendar was slightly off and it was believed the solstice occurred on December 25. The whole thing just stuck.

Quote from: Ahmad on March 20, 2012, 09:45 AM
Really, we wish that the whole year is Ramadan as we feel great comfort and relief inside our souls during it.

Are you saying you feel comfortable with the idea of the sacrifices that have to be made, or better yet, that somehow you will not feel as close to Allah despite the fact that He's around the rest of the year as well?

Quote from: Ahmad on March 20, 2012, 09:45 AM
We had it until the last year. It was cancelled after the revolution. I don't know why, but I'm glad because I was hating changing the time.
Even Microsoft has updated that in Windows XP ;;; When I installed Maher's October release, I found that they have hidden the checkbox of "Automatically adjust clock for daylight saving changes" in "Time Zone" tab when I adjust it to Cairo.

I agree with you totally. I absolutely hate this idea of changing the clock, and even more so when in 2006 the law here was changed so DST would start the second weekend in March and end the first weekend in November, in effect giving up one more month of it. I believe this was done to be in step with Europe, without taking into consideration that they are on a much higher latitude that we are and thus it's easier for them. I especially hate it in March when they put the clock forward. As a medical student, you know that the human circadian system is roughly 25 hours. This is why in every experiment that has been done where someone has been locked in a room with no clock or sunlight, in a matter of days his body will be totally out of sync with a typical solar day.

Quote from: Ahmad on March 20, 2012, 09:45 AM
Again, anytime, dear friend.  ;)

I really appreciate your taking the time to answer me.

Take good care  ;)

Quote from: humb25 on March 23, 2012, 06:23 AM
Let me see if I understand you correctly. Let's suppose you knew sunrise would be at 06:30 (just to name an hour). Does this mean that the day begins at 05:00? If this were during Ramadan, does this mean you must eat your breakfast before 05:00 (never after) and say your dawn prayers between 05:00 and 06:30? What about any other month outside of Ramadan? While I understand that there are no restrictions as far as when to eat, must you still get up well before 06:30 to pray?

YES.
In Ramadan, we eat something before 05.00, then we pray at 05.00, then we wait until sunset.
And YES, we must do the Dawn pray everyday in our life at its time. Not all people do this pray in its time and so they miss it. But they must train themselves to get up and do it.

Quote from: humb25 on March 23, 2012, 06:23 AM
Also, about how long does a typical prayer session take? I remember asking our fearless leader what exactly did prayer consist of, and he responded by saying that basically it's a combination of reading from the Holy Qur'an and asking Allah for things pretty much on your own. What I forgot to ask him was to give me an idea of how much time it takes.

If you pray at mosque, it takes about 10 min. But if at home, your decision, make it short or long. You can do it in about 5 min or more.

Quote from: humb25 on March 23, 2012, 06:23 AM
I'm asking because, if we're talking [for example] 20 minutes, then clearly you don't have to get up as early as 05:00. Also, is dusk or night based on the same principle? Assuming the sun will set tonight at 19:00, during Ramadan must you wait until that hour to eat something, or can you eat as early as 17:30?

YES, I can get up and pray at <for example> 06.15 AM. But then I'll do it a lone at home. If I want to do it at mosque, I must do it at its time 05.00 AM.
The most important thing is to do it before sunrise <06.30 AM> or you'll miss it.
i.e.   I have about 01.30 hour to do the dawn pray from the beginning of its time.

Suppose sunset at 19.00, then this is the exact time of the dusk pray and also this is the exact time when we can eat or drink.
I can drink some water and go to pray <for about 5 min as they do this pray faster>, then come back and eat.

Quote from: humb25 on March 23, 2012, 06:23 AM
Must dusk prayers also happen between 17:30 and 19:00?

NO, its time begins at 19.00, then we can't do it before 19.00.
Its time starts from 19.00 and lasts about 01.20 hour till the next pray which is the last one.

To make it clear ;;;
We have 5 prays each day;;;
1-) The first one is the dawn pray <We call it Al Fajr> which its time begins from before sunrise for about 01.30 hour till sunrise
2-) The second one <We call it Al Dhuhr> which its time begins when the sun is in the middle of the sky [straight above you]... i.e.  at 12.10 PM nowadays. And lasts until the next pray.
3-) The third pray <We call it Al Asr> which its time begins from about 03.30 PM nowadays till the next pray. <I told you we have a calender with the exact times of the prays as they measure it by the position of the sun in the sky and the length of the shadow on the ground>
4-) The fourth pray is the dusk pray <We call it Al Maghreb> which its time begins together with the sunset and lasts for about 01.20 hour till the  last pray.
5-) The last pray <we call it Al Ishaa'> which its time begins when there is no light in the sky after sunset for about 01.20 hour nowadays and lasts until midnight.

So, every pray has a latency period to do it during this period. But doing the pray at its beginning time at mosque is the best.

Quote from: humb25 on March 23, 2012, 06:23 AM
Are you saying you feel comfortable with the idea of the sacrifices that have to be made, or better yet, that somehow you will not feel as close to Allah despite the fact that He's around the rest of the year as well?

I feel no sacrifice because we are used to this.
I know Allah is with us always but in Ramadan when we pray a lot and fast by the order of Allah, so we do what he ordered us with full submission. So we feel his mercy and we feel he is much closer than any other time of the year.
Also our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets> told us that when Ramadan comes, Devils are chained up, doors of the heaven are opened and doors of the hell are closed. And also he told us to show Allah the good inside us.

Quote from: humb25 on March 23, 2012, 06:23 AM
I really appreciate your taking the time to answer me.

And I really appreciate your friendship.

Be well and safe.  :) :D

Quote from: Ahmad on March 24, 2012, 06:38 PM
If you pray at mosque, it takes about 10 min. But if at home, your decision, make it short or long. You can do it in about 5 min or more.

Let me be sure I understand you correctly, I'm a little confused. Assuming the same times as before, prayers (Ramadan or not) must be between 5:00 and 6:30am, the only difference being that during Ramadan, you can't eat after 5:00am. Does this mean you have to get up at [for example] 4:30am, eat something, and then go to the mosque? How far is the mosque from your house? Is it walking distance or must you take a bus, given that you don't have a car? Do you go to the mosque every morning to pray, or only during Ramadan?

In the dusk and evening prayers, did you say they take about 1:20 and not 5 to 10 minutes as the morning prayers? If so, why so long? Is the time of total darkness for the last prayer also determined by a public clock, or do you just look out the window? Finally, did I understand you correctly or must you pray until about midnight? Assuming that's the case and even knowing how committed you are, it must be rough sleeping just 4½ hours. Please clarify this for me, it may not be entirely correct but I just read again what I saved and that's the impression I'm under.

The rest of what you told me makes sense. It's just what I mentioned above that I'm confused about. Feel free to ask me to re-read something I may have missed in the details of the 5 prayers, their names and times -- that's saved to a text file.

Take care,
Humbert

Quote from: humb25 on March 25, 2012, 06:03 AM
Let me be sure I understand you correctly, I'm a little confused. Assuming the same times as before, prayers (Ramadan or not) must be between 5:00 and 6:30am, the only difference being that during Ramadan, you can't eat after 5:00am. Does this mean you have to get up at [for example] 4:30am, eat something, and then go to the mosque? How far is the mosque from your house? Is it walking distance or must you take a bus, given that you don't have a car? Do you go to the mosque every morning to pray, or only during Ramadan?

YES, Dawn prayer must be between 05:00 and 06:30 am.  (Ramadan or not)
YES, in Ramadan, I can't eat after 05:00 am.
We have about 3 mosques in our street only !!  A big one and 2 small. So it takes me about 1 min to go to the mosque on foot.
I do my best to pray at mosque. But I lie if I told you everyday !!  Many times I get up at 06:00 am and pray at home.

Quote from: humb25 on March 25, 2012, 06:03 AM
In the dusk and evening prayers, did you say they take about 1:20 and not 5 to 10 minutes as the morning prayers?

NO, Dusk prayer is the fastest prayer. We do it in about 5 min.
We do any other prayer from 5 to 10 min.

I was talking about the period in which we can still do the pray in its time. SO, when sunset, we do the dusk prayer at mosque at 05:00 and we end it at 05:05 <for example>.
If someone doesn't do it at mosque, he can still do it in any time in the next 01:20 hour before the time of the last prayer comes.

So if anyone can't do any prayer at mosque, he has time to do it but the important thing is to do it before the time of the next prayer comes.

The calender we have determines the exact time of the 5 prayers every day all the year. So we don't even look at the sun or from the window. We see the time and know when the next prayer comes.

In the previous post, I wrote to you the exact time of each prayer. And for how long we can still do the prayer before the next one comes.

Finally, you have the right to be confused as it's all strange for you.

Take care.  :) :D

Quote from: Ahmad on March 25, 2012, 05:46 PM
Finally, you have the right to be confused as it's all strange for you.
Take care.  :) :D

Don't think I didn't read the rest of your post. I read it carefully and now I understand. The reason I'm asking all this is simply because I want to know about my friends' cultures and beliefs, especially given the fact that neither you nor I have the luxury of getting on a plane and meeting personally. I would be thrilled to meet many of you and (assuming it OK in their culture) give you a strong hug -- something acceptable in both my cultures. Sadly, that's just not possible.

Trust me, in my travels one thing I have constantly run into is cultural differences. When I traveled to Thailand years ago on business, I read all I could about Buddhism (the primary religion there, at least in Bangkok). I even learned that you could be arrested for simply standing on a big statue of Buddha to take a picture, and of course, don't even think of saying something negative about the King, although he is basically a figurehead just like in England. I'd like to ask Bladeshark about Hindu religion and culture in India, but as you know, he is not Hindu.

Let me ask you another thing -- do the same rules (prayer, etc) apply equally to women as to men in Islam, or are there rules (not including the dress code, which I already know) which are just for one gender? I also heard somewhere that in Islamic countries it's not proper for men to wear short sleeved shirts, they must all be long sleeve. True or false? Finally (for now), what exactly is the job of an Emam? Is he like some sort of priest? How does an Emam even become and Emam? And finally, am I correct in assuming that gender exclusion applies when it comes to them, i.e., there are no female Emams?

Quote from: humb25 on March 29, 2012, 12:42 AM
especially given the fact that neither you nor I have the luxury of getting on a plane and meeting personally. I would be thrilled to meet many of you and (assuming it OK in their culture) give you a strong hug -- something acceptable in both my cultures. Sadly, that's just not possible.

I wish I could do that too and give you this strong hug. (It's very acceptable here)

Quote from: humb25 on March 29, 2012, 12:42 AM
Trust me, in my travels one thing I have constantly run into is cultural differences.

That's why I'm saying I learn from you a lot as I have never traveled out of my country and I know how good teacher is traveling !!

Quote from: humb25 on March 29, 2012, 12:42 AM
do the same rules (prayer, etc) apply equally to women as to men in Islam, or are there rules

YES, women have the same rules of prayer except they are not demanded to pray at mosque. < Not like men who are demanded to pray at mosque as a priority >
But if she wants to go to pray at mosque, it's OK and they have a defined place in the mosque for women.

Quote from: humb25 on March 29, 2012, 12:42 AM
I also heard somewhere that in Islamic countries it's not proper for men to wear short sleeved shirts

Men have to cover their body from Knees below to umbilicus (navel) above. This part is the important part to cover. <Many were dressing like this several centuries ago> So shirts with long or short sleeves are OK.

Quote from: humb25 on March 29, 2012, 12:42 AM
Finally (for now), what exactly is the job of an Emam? Is he like some sort of priest? How does an Emam even become and Emam? And finally, am I correct in assuming that gender exclusion applies when it comes to them, i.e., there are no female Emams?

First, there are no female Emams.

The Emam is a person who knows about Islam instructions better than ordinary people. He starts as a student at Al Azhar. He studies every science like any other students but in addition to that, he studies the sciences of Islam like The Holy Qur'an, our prophet's life in detail, sayings, situations, manners ...etc. Then when growing up, study the rules in Islam in detail. After graduation from Al Azhar, he becomes an Emam for a mosque. He goes to the mosque everyday, leads people in praying and teaches people about their religion and how to deal with situations of life as they should.
He also does the speeches of Fridays which happens every Friday at about 12:10 PM.
Also, when we don't know how to deal with something and want to know its rule in Islam, we ask the Emam.

But Al Azhar is not a condition to be Emam as there was no Azhar before. Actually the word Emam means the person with the most knowledge about Islam (The Holy Qur'an and our prophet's life in detail) and for that, he can lead them in praying and guide them to do what Islam said.

But also, it doesn't mean that women don't understand about religion or something like that. We have female professors at Al Azhar who teach male students. They only can't be Emam in praying but they can teach as long as they know better.

Take care.  :) :D

Quote from: Ahmad on March 29, 2012, 02:31 AM
I wish I could do that too and give you this strong hug. (It's very acceptable here)

I affirm one day, you, our great leader and myself are going to have lunch somewhere.

Quote from: Ahmad on March 29, 2012, 02:31 AM
That's why I'm saying I learn from you a lot as I have never traveled out of my country and I know how good teacher is traveling !!

I know this situation will change the day you graduate from medical school. Who knows, you might even visit Amsterdam and decide to stay there. I might even join you  :)

Quote from: Ahmad on March 29, 2012, 02:31 AM
YES, women have the same rules of prayer except they are not demanded to pray at mosque. < Not like men who are demanded to pray at mosque as a priority >
But if she wants to go to pray at mosque, it's OK and they have a defined place in the mosque for women.

I don't understand something. When I asked about prayers, I understood you said you could either pray at home or at the mosque, but that you preferred the mosque because it was close to your house. Given this, how exactly does the "pray at the mosque" rule work for men? You already explained that for women it's optional.

Quote from: humb25 on March 29, 2012, 12:42 AM
Men have to cover their body from Knees below to umbilicus (navel) above. This part is the important part to cover. <Many were dressing like this several centuries ago> So shirts with long or short sleeves are OK.

OK, short sleeves are fine. Did I understand you to say you can wear shorts as long as they cover the knees? Here I wear shorts constantly unless it either gets cold or I have to go to a more formal place where it's not appropriate, and culturally there's no problem. I just stood up and got a measuring tape. From the very center of my knee to where the shorts end there are 3½ cm of exposed skin. If I were over there, would I have to wear either longer shorts or regular long pants?

Quote from: Ahmad on March 29, 2012, 02:31 AM
First, there are no female Emams.
The Emam is a person who knows about Islam instructions better than ordinary people. He starts as a student at Al Azhar. He studies every science like any other students but in addition to that, he studies the sciences of Islam like The Holy Qur'an, our prophet's life in detail, sayings, situations, manners ...etc. Then when growing up, study the rules in Islam in detail. After graduation from Al Azhar, he becomes an Emam for a mosque. He goes to the mosque everyday, leads people in praying and teaches people about their religion and how to deal with situations of life as they should.
He also does the speeches of Fridays which happens every Friday at about 12:10 PM.
Also, when we don't know how to deal with something and want to know its rule in Islam, we ask the Emam.
But Al Azhar is not a condition to be Emam as there was no Azhar before. Actually the word Emam means the person with the most knowledge about Islam (The Holy Qur'an and our prophet's life in detail) and for that, he can lead them in praying and guide them to do what Islam said.
But also, it doesn't mean that women don't understand about religion or something like that. We have female professors at Al Azhar who teach male students. They only can't be Emam in praying but they can teach as long as they know better.

OK, I pretty much understand it. Still, there are a few questions. What exactly is Al Azhar? Is this a school located in your city, or what? Why are the speeches at exactly 12:10pm - is that time stated in the Holy Qur'an or what? Also, I was under the impression that if you arrive at a mosque, there will be other men (or women) praying there. I thought each person prayed on their own simply because they don't get there at exactly the same time. Now I understand you to say the Emam leads people in prayer. I'm confused.

Also, does the Emam perform Islamic marriage ceremonies? If not, then who does? Are religious marriages done at the mosque the same way they're done at a church in Christianity or what?

Thanks for the answers.
Humbert

Quote from: humb25 on March 29, 2012, 06:04 AM
I don't understand something. When I asked about prayers, I understood you said you could either pray at home or at the mosque, but that you preferred the mosque because it was close to your house. Given this, how exactly does the "pray at the mosque" rule work for men? You already explained that for women it's optional.

For men, the priority is to pray at mosque. If some one can't, like sleeping, sick, working, traveling or any reason, he can pray at home or at work or at his current place.
For women, the priority is to pray at home. But if she wants to pray at mosque. It's OK.

Quote from: humb25 on March 29, 2012, 06:04 AM
Did I understand you to say you can wear shorts as long as they cover the knees?

YES, but it must cover the whole knees. Notice that we kneel and prostrate in praying. So the clothes we wear must cover knees well. Longer shorts will be OK if somebody always wears shorts.

Quote from: humb25 on March 29, 2012, 06:04 AM
What exactly is Al Azhar?

Al-Azhar is like an independent ministry of education, working together with the main ministry of education, taking care of teaching Islam sciences and other sciences to students from the beginning of learning till graduation.
Most mosque Emams are Azhar graduates.

Quote from: humb25 on March 29, 2012, 06:04 AM
Why are the speeches at exactly 12:10pm - is that time stated in the Holy Qur'an or what?

Because this is the time of the second prayer which we do everyday <It ranges from about 11:45 AM to 12:15 PM according to the season>. But on Friday, the Emam does a speech first, then he leads us in prayer.

Quote from: humb25 on March 29, 2012, 06:04 AM
Also, I was under the impression that if you arrive at a mosque, there will be other men (or women) praying there. I thought each person prayed on their own simply because they don't get there at exactly the same time. Now I understand you to say the Emam leads people in prayer. I'm confused.

Everyone knows the exact time of prayers, so he goes to mosque to pray. If he goes early, he can pray or not <as he likes> until the time of the main prayer comes then the Emam leads all people at mosque in the main prayer.
If somebody goes late after the Emam finished, he can do the prayer at mosque alone or if many are late, one of them leads the others like Emam in the prayer.

Quote from: humb25 on March 29, 2012, 06:04 AM
Also, does the Emam perform Islamic marriage ceremonies? If not, then who does? Are religious marriages done at the mosque the same way they're done at a church in Christianity or what?

Here, it's called declaration of marriage which happens at mosque. The bride and the groom were already written as a couple in a paper at the records of marriage. but the groom goes to mosque to declare that he has married some woman and so the Emam say something and ask Allah all the best for them.
<Declaration means let people know that this woman becomes your wife>
Then after that as a tradition, they do celebrations at home and in their street where they live. They go to some Concert Halls or any way of celebration.

Take care.
:) :D

Quote from: Ahmad on March 30, 2012, 04:30 AM
Al-Azhar is like an independent ministry of education, working together with the main ministry of education, taking care of teaching Islam sciences and other sciences to students from the beginning of learning till graduation.
Most mosque Emams are Azhar graduates.

Although I know you haven't yet traveled outside Egypt, by any chance do you know if in other Islamic countries there are also Al-Azhars or something similar?

Speaking of traveling overseas, based on what you've been telling me I assume you don't have a passport. However, when you finish your studies you will need one, believe me! I'm curious if Egypt has other passport issuance requirements than simple proof of citizenship. Here in America proof of citizenship and money to pay for it are just about all you need, unless there exists some official reason why you can't leave the country. This is, however, not the case in many countries I've been to. For example, in Colombia if you want a passport, not only must you prove citizenship, you must prove you've fufilled your military obligation (men only) and you must also prove you don't owe taxes to the government. How is it in Egypt? Although you might not yet have one just yet, surely you know someone who does.

Quote from: Ahmad on March 30, 2012, 04:30 AM
Everyone knows the exact time of prayers, so he goes to mosque to pray. If he goes early, he can pray or not <as he likes> until the time of the main prayer comes then the Emam leads all people at mosque in the main prayer.
If somebody goes late after the Emam finished, he can do the prayer at mosque alone or if many are late, one of them leads the others like Emam in the prayer.

Based on what you're telling me, I'm under the impression there is no need to pray together with other men and that doing so optional. If this is correct, then do men pray together for no other reason than personal preference? Am I right or what?

Quote from: Ahmad on March 30, 2012, 04:30 AM
Here, it's called declaration of marriage which happens at mosque. The bride and the groom were already written as a couple in a paper at the records of marriage. but the groom goes to mosque to declare that he has married some woman and so the Emam say something and ask Allah all the best for them.
<Declaration means let people know that this woman becomes your wife>
Then after that as a tradition, they do celebrations at home and in their street where they live. They go to some Concert Halls or any way of celebration.

Let me see if I fully understand. As I see it, you're telling me there is a civil marriage (i.e., non-religious, just government) where the couple signs some papers. Then they go to the mosque where the Emam declares them married and asks Allah for His blessing. Assuming I've got it right so far, is the declaration at the mosque also a religious ceremony full of invited guests? And of course no questions regarding the rest. If this is basically right, you might be surprised that in my cultures the procedure is very similar. First comes the civil marriage, which is just signing papers. As far as the government is concerned, this is all that matters. You are free to then go to a church and perform a religious ceremony, but the government essentially ignores that, they only care about the papers. And, just like over there, afterwards comes the "reception" which is nothing more than a big celebration. The only difference is that here, at the reception they drink alcohol, dance, play music and do other things they like. Many photographs are taken too.

Oh, just for your information assuming I haven't clarified this, and just so you'll know me better. For me, the word "bicultural" is more appropriate than "bilingual". The reason is simply that I was raised under 2 cultures -- the one brought to Cuba and the Americas from our forefathers in Spain, and the American culture I was educated in. I arrived here at age 5. At home, Spanish was the language and the culture from my native country reigned supreme. At school, it was English and the American culture was practiced, not only at the school but by all my classmates. I adopted both as mine  :), and still do. This is very different from our great leader -- he speaks 3 languages and has the ability to read and write 3 different alphabets, yet he only has one culture because that's how he was raised and where he still lives.

Take good care,
Ahmad

Quote from: humb25 on March 31, 2012, 05:53 AM
Although I know you haven't yet traveled outside Egypt, by any chance do you know if in other Islamic countries there are also Al-Azhars or something similar?

NO, Al-Azhar is only in Egypt and it is the biggest foundation, teaching Islam sciences in the world. So, they come here to Al-Azhar university from all Islamic countries to learn Islam sciences.

Quote from: humb25 on March 31, 2012, 05:53 AM
Speaking of traveling overseas, based on what you've been telling me I assume you don't have a passport. However, when you finish your studies you will need one, believe me! I'm curious if Egypt has other passport issuance requirements than simple proof of citizenship. Here in America proof of citizenship and money to pay for it are just about all you need, unless there exists some official reason why you can't leave the country. This is, however, not the case in many countries I've been to. For example, in Colombia if you want a passport, not only must you prove citizenship, you must prove you've fufilled your military obligation (men only) and you must also prove you don't owe taxes to the government. How is it in Egypt? Although you might not yet have one just yet, surely you know someone who does.

YES, I don't have a passport.
What I know is that I must fulfill my military obligation before I can travel.
Really, I don't know enough about such things. BUT I'll know better when I need to travel.
Also, to travel outside the country needs money and it's not available for traveling now. May be after graduation and working.

Quote from: humb25 on March 31, 2012, 05:53 AM
Based on what you're telling me, I'm under the impression there is no need to pray together with other men and that doing so optional. If this is correct, then do men pray together for no other reason than personal preference? Am I right or what?

To clarify this,,,
We are demanded to pray at mosque so as to pray as one group leaded by an Emam in 5 specific times a day. Also, praying as a group at mosque has a greater blessing than praying individually at home, so it's much much better.
And praying at mosque means praying as a group, unless the man is too late to find another one to do the main prayer with him. In that case he prays at mosque individually.
If there are 2 or more late, they can do the main prayer as a group, one leads the others as Emam to get the benefit from praying as a group.
There are prayers which we do before or after the main prayer but they are optional and so we do it individually <Everyone prays as he likes>. BUT the main prayer is done as a group leaded by an Emam at mosque.

Quote from: humb25 on March 31, 2012, 05:53 AM

Let me see if I fully understand. As I see it, you're telling me there is a civil marriage (i.e., non-religious, just government) where the couple signs some papers. Then they go to the mosque where the Emam declares them married and asks Allah for His blessing. Assuming I've got it right so far, is the declaration at the mosque also a religious ceremony full of invited guests? And of course no questions regarding the rest. If this is basically right, you might be surprised that in my cultures the procedure is very similar. First comes the civil marriage, which is just signing papers. As far as the government is concerned, this is all that matters. You are free to then go to a church and perform a religious ceremony, but the government essentially ignores that, they only care about the papers. And, just like over there, afterwards comes the "reception" which is nothing more than a big celebration. The only difference is that here, at the reception they drink alcohol, dance, play music and do other things they like. Many photographs are taken too.

The papers are only for the government as you said.
During the days of our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets>, a marriage was done at mosque, i.e... the groom and the father of the bride with all invited guests and Muslims of the neighborhood go to mosque to do the prayer, then our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets> did a speech with recommendations to help them to live happy together. Then he ask the groom if he accepts her as a wife and if the bride accepts him as a husband. If YES, then they are married and they celebrated with a tambourine <a kind of music tools like a drum but smaller>. And this is what Emam does at mosque nowadays.
So, marriage in Islam requires 2 things:
- Accept each other.
- publicity, i.e.  Not in secret, family of both the groom and the bride must know and they publicize that in the neighborhood. i.e.. let people know that some woman becomes your wife, not just signing a paper.

Regarding celebrations and reception, we are almost similar except for what you know.

Take care, my dear bicultural friend.
:) :D

Quote from: Ahmad on March 31, 2012, 09:37 PM
What I know is that I must fulfill my military obligation before I can travel.
Really, I don't know enough about such things. BUT I'll know better when I need to travel.
Also, to travel outside the country needs money and it's not available for traveling now. May be after graduation and working.

As for the military obligation, I don't know if this is possible in Egypt, but in both Colombia and Mexico where the same rule exists, many guys whose family is well off simply bribe the military doctor to say that the guy is unfit for military service. Once that happens, he is issued a document essentially saying that requirement has been met. In Colombia this is so endemic that there's a saying, "poor kids go to the army, rich kids just don't qualify".  :) Also, be advised that I'm aware of your situation and I know that right now it's not possible to travel, but believe me, this situation will change. That someday you'll have a passport is a certainty, so if you can do as in the countries I mentioned to get out of the army, start getting ready  :).

Quote from: Ahmad on March 31, 2012, 09:37 PM
To clarify this,,,
We are demanded to pray at mosque so as to pray as one group leaded by an Emam in 5 specific times a day. Also, praying as a group at mosque has a greater blessing than praying individually at home, so it's much much better.
And praying at mosque means praying as a group, unless the man is too late to find another one to do the main prayer with him. In that case he prays at mosque individually.
If there are 2 or more late, they can do the main prayer as a group, one leads the others as Emam to get the benefit from praying as a group.
There are prayers which we do before or after the main prayer but they are optional and so we do it individually <Everyone prays as he likes>. BUT the main prayer is done as a group leaded by an Emam at mosque.

So basically what you're saying is that it's "better" (for lack of better wording) to pray with the Emam as opposed to doing it alone. If so, now I understand.

Quote from: Ahmad on March 31, 2012, 09:37 PM
The papers are only for the government as you said.
During the days of our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets>, a marriage was done at mosque, i.e... the groom and the father of the bride with all invited guests and Muslims of the neighborhood go to mosque to do the prayer, then our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets> did a speech with recommendations to help them to live happy together. Then he ask the groom if he accepts her as a wife and if the bride accepts him as a husband. If YES, then they are married and they celebrated with a tambourine <a kind of music tools like a drum but smaller>. And this is what Emam does at mosque nowadays.
So, marriage in Islam requires 2 things:
- Accept each other.
- publicity, i.e.  Not in secret, family of both the groom and the bride must know and they publicize that in the neighborhood. i.e.. let people know that some woman becomes your wife, not just signing a paper.

OK, I understand. The only question remaining is that today at the mosque when the Emam "publishes" their marriage, it's a ceremony with invited guests and everything, right? It's not just the couple and the Emam alone?

Quote from: Ahmad on March 31, 2012, 09:37 PM
Take care, my dear bicultural friend.

:) :) :) :) :)

Take care,

Quote from: humb25 on April 01, 2012, 02:56 AM
As for the military obligation, I don't know if this is possible in Egypt, but in both Colombia and Mexico where the same rule exists, many guys whose family is well off simply bribe the military doctor to say that the guy is unfit for military service. Once that happens, he is issued a document essentially saying that requirement has been met. In Colombia this is so endemic that there's a saying, "poor kids go to the army, rich kids just don't qualify".  :) Also, be advised that I'm aware of your situation and I know that right now it's not possible to travel, but believe me, this situation will change. That someday you'll have a passport is a certainty, so if you can do as in the countries I mentioned to get out of the army, start getting ready  :).

I may get out of the army without doing anything, as they say every some years that they don't need many to the army, and so many will get out by their good luck. I hope I have a good luck.

Quote from: humb25 on April 01, 2012, 02:56 AM
So basically what you're saying is that it's "better" (for lack of better wording) to pray with the Emam as opposed to doing it alone. If so, now I understand.

YES, it's much better to pray with the Emam.
For more information,,, Suppose the blessing of God are points, then:
Pray alone >> get 1 point.
Pray with the Emam >> get more than 27 points.
So Praying as a group is more than 27 times better than praying individually, and that is from what our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets> said.
Do you see the difference !!

Quote from: humb25 on April 01, 2012, 02:56 AM
OK, I understand. The only question remaining is that today at the mosque when the Emam "publishes" their marriage, it's a ceremony with invited guests and everything, right? It's not just the couple and the Emam alone?

YES, the Emam, the groom, invited guests and also people of the neighborhood who came just for praying.

Have a good day, everyday.
:) :D

Quote from: Ahmad on April 01, 2012, 05:37 PM
I may get out of the army without doing anything, as they say every some years that they don't need many to the army, and so many will get out by their good luck. I hope I have a good luck.

That situation happened before even here, and without conscription (i.e. forced military service). The draft (as conscription was called here) ended in 1973 about the time the Vietnam War ended, and to this day not even the highest levels of the military have asked Obama to bring it back. What happened is that they've created a system where the soldiers are not just very well paid, but the benefits they get are valid even after they complete their service, not to even mention that job market here is difficult because many jobs have been outsourced overseas. Understandibly, so many people have volunteered that there have been times where the army has actually had to turn applicants away. By comparison, soldiers in the other countries I mentioned are paid next to nothing and treated like garbage. In your case, although there is a high possibility that you will not be called, if you were does there exist a possibility you can bribe your way out? Also, if you were simply not called and never had to resort to bribery, the day you apply for a passport will you have to produce some document proving that your military obligation is fulfilled -- in other words, you were ready to serve but not called?

Another thing, only this time about the Arabic language. In English as you know, the word "you" applies in all situations and is the only one used. Not so in Spanish, German and maybe some other languages. In Spanish (which I'm more familiar with), there are 2 words for "you", they are "tu" and "usted". The word "tu" is used when addressing friends, spouses and others where there exists a good level of friendship and trust. However, with strangers and older people (chronologically speaking), the word "usted" is more appropriate because it implies more respect. For example, in my wife's family, I use "tu" when speaking not just to her, but to all her brothers and sisters, including their children. However, when addressing my father in law (her father), I always use "usted" because he should be treated with more respect and at a somewhat higher level. Similarly, if Spanish were spoken in Egypt, I'd address you as "tu", but I'd be sure to use "usted" when addressing your father. 

My question is simply this: does Arabic have something like this, or is there just one word for "you"?

BTW, if I don't respond to anything else you told me, it's only because now I understood and no more questions are necessary.  :)

Thanks
Humbert

Quote from: humb25 on April 02, 2012, 12:38 AM
My question is simply this: does Arabic have something like this, or is there just one word for "you"?

We have many words representing the word "YOU" !!
Even "YOU" for males is different from "YOU" for females ;;; It's written in the same way but differs in pronunciation >>
For males > we say "Anta"
For females > we say "Anti" ... BUT in Arabic, they are written in the same way.

And of course, like you >> there is "YOU" between friends and another "YOU" for old people or people of high standings as respect.
But the most famous word used for respect like "YOU" is:
For males > we say "Hadritak"
For females > we say "Hadritik" ... BUT there are many words like this according to the person you are talking to but this example works with anyone as respect.

For your knowledge, Arabic is one of the difficult languages to learn because it's so big with a lot of rules and so, it is a very rich language in meanings and phrase composition ways.
English is much much easier than Arabic.

But I hope this will not discourage you if you want to learn some about Arabic.  ;D ;D

Good bye for now.
:) :D

Quote from: Ahmad on April 03, 2012, 12:08 AM
We have many words representing the word "YOU" !!
Even "YOU" for males is different from "YOU" for females ;;; It's written in the same way but differs in pronunciation >>
For males > we say "Anta"
For females > we say "Anti" ... BUT in Arabic, they are written in the same way.
And of course, like you >> there is "YOU" between friends and another "YOU" for old people or people of high standings as respect.
But the most famous word used for respect like "YOU" is:
For males > we say "Hadritak"
For females > we say "Hadritik" ... BUT there are many words like this according to the person you are talking to but this example works with anyone as respect.

This is most interesting! In all languages I've had to opportunity to at least learn something about, this is the first time I've ever seen a situation where there were different "you's" for men and women. As I said before, the formality of the "you" being used is also common to other languages, but not it's genderization.

Quote from: Ahmad on April 03, 2012, 12:08 AM
For your knowledge, Arabic is one of the difficult languages to learn because it's so big with a lot of rules and so, it is a very rich language in meanings and phrase composition ways.
English is much much easier than Arabic.

While I'm certainly not qualified to give an opinion about how difficult Arabic may be to learn, I do believe some languages are harder. On a TV show recently, a British guy said he was very good at languages and could learn any in a week. Someone made him a bet and, after doing research, selected the language believe by all was the most difficult to learn: Icelandic. Arabic wasn't even on the list. To make a long story short, the guy went to Reykjavik and won the bet.

English is another tough language to learn. For example, consider the words "far", "fast", "fake" and "fair". Notice that in each, the letter "a" is pronounced differently, but worst still, there is no accent or hi-ascii character to indicate otherwise. Similarly, you have words like "elaborate" that have 2 pronunciations, and each means something entirely different, with again no character anywhere to tell you which is which. Spanish, by comparison, is nothing like that. Every vowel, indeed every letter, has one and only one pronunciation -- it's own name. If a situation exists where one world could mean 2 things, one of the meanings will have an accent to differentiate it from the other. The same holds true if on certain occasions one letter is silent in one situation but not in another. As you know, I was educated entirely in English, yet I learned to read and write Spanish all on my own without ever having to go to school. To learn the proper grammar, I just downloaded a PDF and read the basic rules. The rest was just a matter of practice, such as reading newspapers or magazines.

Quote from: Ahmad on April 03, 2012, 12:08 AM
But I hope this will not discourage you if you want to learn some about Arabic.  ;D ;D

Au contraire, my friend! The more difficult something is, the more interested I am in learning it. Even here in San Antonio, signing up for Arabic classes is not a problem. The problem lies in the fact that I have no way to practice it, so I'm basically wasting my time. Clearly this would not be the situation if I were frequently visiting Egypt, Palestine, Jordan or any other Arab nation. To make matters even worse, most of the Muslims that live here (the ones I told you about) don't even speak Arabic themselves simply because they are now 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants and, regarding practice, are basically in the same situation I am. And of course, let's never forget that the largest Islamic community in the world is not even located in the Middle East, it's in South and Southwest Asia.

Despite this, rest assured I will continue to try to learn as much as I can.

Thanks,
Humbert

Quote from: humbert on April 04, 2012, 01:19 AM
This is most interesting! In all languages I've had to opportunity to at least learn something about, this is the first time I've ever seen a situation where there were different "you's" for men and women. As I said before, the formality of the "you" being used is also common to other languages, but not it's genderization.

YES, it's interesting.
When someone is speaking to another, you know if the person is a man or a woman without seeing him.

Quote from: humbert on April 04, 2012, 01:19 AM
While I'm certainly not qualified to give an opinion about how difficult Arabic may be to learn, I do believe some languages are harder.

I didn't say it's the hardest. I said one of the hardest.  <To be precise> ;D ;D ;D
I hear that Chinese is harder and you saying that Icelandic is a hard one too.
BUT really, Arabic is very beautiful and professional. You can say one Arabic word containing the subject, verb and 2 objects plus specifying the time <past, present or future>>>  All this is in only one word !!

Quote from: humbert on April 04, 2012, 01:19 AM
Au contraire, my friend! The more difficult something is, the more interested I am in learning it. Even here in San Antonio, signing up for Arabic classes is not a problem. The problem lies in the fact that I have no way to practice it, so I'm basically wasting my time.

You are absolutely right.
Difficult is more interesting.
Learning without practice is a waste of time.

:) :) :D :D

Quote from: Ahmad on April 05, 2012, 08:08 AM
I didn't say it's the hardest. I said one of the hardest.  <To be precise> ;D ;D ;D
I hear that Chinese is harder and you saying that Icelandic is a hard one too.
BUT really, Arabic is very beautiful and professional. You can say one Arabic word containing the subject, verb and 2 objects plus specifying the time <past, present or future>>>  All this is in only one word !!

That's quite interesting! Now I see why the Iberian Peninsula in Europe profited so much and why education was so widespread during the centuries of Islamic occupation. Sadly, in 1492 the Christians threw them out, and the Holy Inquisition followed. Worst still, when they came to this hemisphere, the Inquisition followed.

Regarding languages, Spanish also has it's advantages over English, but not as efficiently as Arabic. I wonder if this is even possible so I can understand what you told me a little better: can you take any word or short sentence, type it in here in Latin characters as best you can, and explain this concept by example. I hope this sort of thing is even possible because I know there are words, saying and phrases that simply have no translation or can't be expressed in another language.

I'm glad you brought up Chinese. As might know, their writing system isn't phonetic like in the languages we speak. Their characters stand for things, feelings, abstract ideas and so on, not for sounds. A person from Beijing (where Mandarin is spoken) and someone from Hong Kong (where they speak Cantonese) cannot talk to each other without a translator, but one guy can write something in Chinese and the other guy will read it perfectly. In a phonetic language, this is simply impossible. By comparison, a guy from Beijing can easily speak to someone from Taipei (Taiwan), only the accent is different. However, one guy's system is virtually unreadable to the other guy. If you're interested, I'll explain how this happened.

Take care
Humbert  :)

Quote from: humbert on April 06, 2012, 05:30 AM
I wonder if this is even possible so I can understand what you told me a little better: can you take any word or short sentence, type it in here in Latin characters as best you can, and explain this concept by example. I hope this sort of thing is even possible because I know there are words, saying and phrases that simply have no translation or can't be expressed in another language.

I'll try with a word from the Holy Qur'an.
I'll write it to you in English in the same way that we pronounce it in Arabic.

The word is pronounced like this "Fasayakfeekahum".
It means like "then, he will protect you from them and grant you victory over them".

Trying to split it into parts ;;;

- Fa  >>  conjunction like "then" for example.
- sa  >>  like "will" refers to future.
- yakfee  >>  this is the verb which means "protect and grant victory", and its subject is a pronoun equals "he" but hidden <not written>, yet it's understood from pronunciation and it refers to "Allah".
- ka  >>  is a written pronoun equals "you" and it's the first object.
- hum  >>  is a written pronoun equals "them" and it's the second object.

So, in Arabic, you can merge some phrase parts together into one word, and it's written merged not splitted ;;; i.e.
Suppose you want to write "I like him" in Arabic, then you will write it like this "Ilikehim".
Arabic letters also have the ability to fuse together creating one continuous shape without any spaces between letters, so the word "Ilikehim" is now wrong, you should also remove spaces between every letter to make them all adhere to each other.

Be well and safe.
:) :D ;)

Quote from: Ahmad on April 06, 2012, 08:54 AM
I'll try with a word from the Holy Qur'an.
I'll write it to you in English in the same way that we pronounce it in Arabic.
The word is pronounced like this "Fasayakfeekahum".
It means like "then, he will protect you from them and grant you victory over them".

I took the info you gave me and pasted it to a text file. I have another language-related question for you, but not right now, I getting a little sleepy and I promised Bladshark an e-mail.

I'll be back with this, and thanks for the answer.

I see a lot of new users are registering everyday. Perhaps they want to be thankful after downloading something but unfortunately there is no new post.
(http://www.replicatedtypo.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/baboon2.jpg)

And I noticed the old specialists have already left: daniil, topdog...

LOL I'm happy to be called "old" but not sure if daniil would appreciate it so much  ;D

He has been a very good contributor, it's a shame to not see him here any more  :(

perhaps I should have said "former", but if I wasnt misled and if the dog avatar provides an accurate image of you, perhaps the term old is an euphemism.
Anyway I see there is nothing new here ,so Im no interested in coming any more. Ill be busy till september and Ill stay available for the very best specialists by pm, like harkaz, the ripper Ahmad, the pirat humbert, the funny aa1234779...
If you have problems Ive skills in nsis, c++ for eventual questions. As for the project windows ultralite, its currently on hold, but it will be updated by next year. I guess the specialist harkaz, who has tested every version for an expert diagnosis can eventually upload for the best specialists if needed. For me it will be difficult to upload anything since I terminated my former connection. Im now connecting through my smartphone which is incredibly slow compared to optic fiber. What's more my provider has blocked the connection sharing, no way to use the phone as a modem for the computer...