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Maths & statistics exercises / French and English lessons

Started by scarface, June 16, 2013, 11:58 PM

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Daniil

Quote from: humbert on November 23, 2022, 06:22 AMStill, it's not too hard to hear a New Yorker, a Southerner, and a Californian and tell who's who. Also, by "Southerner" I specifically mean American states of Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi where the accent is most pronounced.
Oh, I probably read about it in a books. They prolonging vowels in words, shortening word endings and pronouncing "e" a bit incorrect way?

Quote from: humbert on November 23, 2022, 06:22 AMIs that the case in Russia? Does someone from [for example] St Petersburg speak a little different than someone from Moscow? I would guess that faraway Siberia must have different accents too.
No, in Russia there is no big differences in pronunciation, except a few cases. That is because of education politics at soviet era
Quote from: humbert on November 23, 2022, 06:22 AMStill, it's not too hard to hear a New Yorker, a Southerner, and a Californian and tell who's who. Also, by "Southerner" I specifically mean American states of Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi where the accent is most pronounced.
Oh, I probably read about it in a books. They prolonging vowels in words, shortening word endings and pronouncing "e" a bit incorrect way?

Quote from: humbert on November 23, 2022, 06:22 AMIs that the case in Russia? Does someone from [for example] St Petersburg speak a little different than someone from Moscow? I would guess that faraway Siberia must have different accents too.
No, in Russia there is no big differences in pronunciation, except a few cases. That's because of education politics at soviet era. That time in schools teachers corrected pronunciation of pupils, teaching them speak correctly. So today in regions with slavic majority in population, we speaking mostly without specific accent - for example, I dated with a girl from Petropavlovsk-Kamchatskiy, and her pronunciation was no different from mine.

The only exceptions are regions with Muslim majority (like in Caucasus), their languages are not slavic in roots, so their accent are very strong and very easy to sence. And, also, a people from far and very depressed villages - they have a lot of older forms in everyday speaking, and they have mostly old ways of accenting in words.

humbert

Quote from: Daniil on November 25, 2022, 02:39 PMwe speaking mostly without specific accent - for example, I dated with a girl from Petropavlovsk-Kamchatskiy, and her pronunciation was no different from mine.

At first I thought Petropavlovsk-Kamchatskiy was a neighborhood in St Petersburg. This until it occurred to me to look for it on Google Maps. Wow!! That place is on the other side of the country! Who even lives in the Kamchatka Peninsula? Did she go to St Petersburg or did you go there? If she came to you how did she get there? No major airports anywhere near there. Maybe a week or more on the Trans-Siberian railroad.?

Quote from: Daniil on November 25, 2022, 02:39 PMThe only exceptions are regions with Muslim majority (like in Caucasus), their languages are not slavic in roots, so their accent are very strong and very easy to sence. And, also, a people from far and very depressed villages - they have a lot of older forms in everyday speaking, and they have mostly old ways of accenting in words.

This makes perfect sense. In a country that size inhabited by so many different types of people, getting everybody to pronounce the same way is just impossible.

Shadow.97

#82
Quote from: humbert on November 27, 2022, 05:24 AM
Quote from: Daniil on November 25, 2022, 02:39 PMThe only exceptions are regions with Muslim majority (like in Caucasus), their languages are not slavic in roots, so their accent are very strong and very easy to sence. And, also, a people from far and very depressed villages - they have a lot of older forms in everyday speaking, and they have mostly old ways of accenting in words.

This makes perfect sense. In a country that size inhabited by so many different types of people, getting everybody to pronounce the same way is just impossible.
Incredible, as in Sweden, driving 1h(or maybe 2) gives you a completely new accent.. :D
There are parts of Sweden where I have trouble understanding it if spoken at a decent speed. The closest being 2h 50 minutes drive according to google maps. (200km)

humbert

Quote from: Shadow.97 on November 27, 2022, 05:59 PMIncredible, as in Sweden, driving 1h(or maybe 2) gives you a completely new accent.. :D
There are parts of Sweden where I have trouble understanding it if spoken at a decent speed. The closest being 2h 50 minutes drive according to google maps. (200km)

Whereabouts are these places with different accents? I'm thinking this is in the far north. As I recall from studying geography at school, this is an area know as Lapland. I once met a Finnish woman from Rovaniemi. She is a Lapp. She told me that when her mother first went to school, she didn't speak Finnish and had to forcibly learn it.

I would guess driving there in the winter is next to impossible.

Shadow.97

Quote from: humbert on November 28, 2022, 05:19 AM
Quote from: Shadow.97 on November 27, 2022, 05:59 PMIncredible, as in Sweden, driving 1h(or maybe 2) gives you a completely new accent.. :D
There are parts of Sweden where I have trouble understanding it if spoken at a decent speed. The closest being 2h 50 minutes drive according to google maps. (200km)

Whereabouts are these places with different accents? I'm thinking this is in the far north. As I recall from studying geography at school, this is an area know as Lapland. I once met a Finnish woman from Rovaniemi. She is a Lapp. She told me that when her mother first went to school, she didn't speak Finnish and had to forcibly learn it.

I would guess driving there in the winter is next to impossible.

There are way too many dialects to be able to list. More or less every town in my region has its own quirks. It's also hard to tell at what point it becomes a distint dialect and what is just a stronger version of the same dialect.

Even the closest town from me has a different dialect, most big town have been more heavily influenced by TV and have a more standardised swedish. The closest communities to my home town have a more "farmer" way of speaking. Especially the people aged 60+.
Official list of dialects is here: https://www.isof.se/lar-dig-mer/kunskapsbanker/lar-dig-mer-om-svenska-dialekter/utforska-sveriges-dialekter
According to this list, my region (Småland) has 3 dialects belonging to 3 different parent groups of dialects. My understanding is that I have the  South Småland dialect.
In my region you have 3 different "forces" pulling you to different dialects.
North (More towards Gothen-burg style)
North east (By Stockholm region)
South (By the ex Danish regions)

But personally, I group them as one when I speak with someone from for example Stockholm, but if I were to speak with someone from the same region, we would specify which county and not just region your dialect is from.
Kalmaritiska would be the dialect of Kalmar, Vimmerby dialect would be the one specific to Vimmerby.


Might be of interest for you to see this wiki page if you're interested in seeing more about Swedish in finland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish-speaking_population_of_Finland

I have quite a few friends from Oulu which is a city not too far from Rovaniemi. None speak/understand more than a few words of Swedish. Even if they had it in School.

My ex- colleague from Malung either spoke in dialect or national swedish, but even her "national" sounded very dialect influenced. If she spoke in her native dialect, I did not understand much at all.

I mostly speak English with my friend who is from Laholm(118km, 73miles away) , but him and I both get confused when we say just a word or two in Swedish as we are not used to eachothers dialects. He has a very thick southern dialect that I am not used to. Even the true southerns are easier to understand than him, as he has oddities to his dialect that are not common to any of the primary dialects.
However, a lot of Stockholm people see all the dialects south as one and all the northern as one.

You usually adapt the dialect to the person you are speaking with. So when I speak with family my dialect is more noticable.

This is a topic I have too much to say about and contradict myself in, so if you want the ful story I think the best would be for us to call :D

humbert

Quote from: Shadow.97 on November 28, 2022, 03:50 PMThere are way too many dialects to be able to list. More or less every town in my region has its own quirks. It's also hard to tell at what point it becomes a distint dialect and what is just a stronger version of the same dialect.

I'm not too clear about something. How do you define the term "dialect"? For example, America, the UK, and Australia all speak English, just with different accents. They are close enough that the 3 nationalities can speak to each other without needing an translator. Is this what you define as "dialect" or do you mean to a situation where what is spoken is different enough where speaking without a translator becomes difficult, if not impossible?

Shadow.97

Quote from: humbert on November 29, 2022, 05:35 AM
Quote from: Shadow.97 on November 28, 2022, 03:50 PMThere are way too many dialects to be able to list. More or less every town in my region has its own quirks. It's also hard to tell at what point it becomes a distint dialect and what is just a stronger version of the same dialect.

I'm not too clear about something. How do you define the term "dialect"? For example, America, the UK, and Australia all speak English, just with different accents. They are close enough that the 3 nationalities can speak to each other without needing an translator. Is this what you define as "dialect" or do you mean to a situation where what is spoken is different enough where speaking without a translator becomes difficult, if not impossible?
An accent would be if you as an american came here and learned the Stockholm dialect.
Then you'd have an american accent but a stockholm dialect.

My swedish colleagues who moved to Ireland have slightly different ways of speaking English. They all the the swedish accent, but their dialect still shines through. I can often tell if they're from north, central or southern part of Sweden by carefully listening to their English. But it's hard compared to hearing them speak Swedish.

The dialect 2h from me is greater than the difference of New york english to Texas english. But due to the gradient of dialects in Sweden, you can reach points where the difference is greater than Irish Donegal english and Texas english without you realising that it suddenly changed.


And yes, there are parts that either you have to change your dialect to a more standardised or you will have issues understanding eachother. Unless you learn to understand theirs. Translators wont be needed unless you have lived completely cut off from the rest of the world. However explaining words and changing which word you use is common place. If it's a pronounciation issue you can always spell the word out.
Especially Finland-swedish. They do not use tonation and I have had to swap over to English instead. Because they have finnish loan-words that mainland swedish does not use.

But it's a none issue. Understanding dialects come naturally, one thing American/UK English native speakers are bad at, is to understand foreigners English when it's spoken. Due to accents and choice of words. Foreigners more often understand eachother as they are more lenient and can imagine different meanings of words even if they are improperly used according to them or their way of speaking.
I am a fluent English speaker with an accent, but due to the locals thinking I'm stupid or something they have a harder time understanding me than if I speak to germans in English. It can get really frustrating.

Some examples of words in Swedish that other regions have issues understanding would be: Balle (Means butt in some parts of sweden, and balls in other parts). Due to this difference, there's been severe confusion in my life. "I fell backwards on to my balle" a person once told me. I was very confused about the acrobatics made to fall backwards on ones balls, or if they just hung very low.

Wheelbarrow is another word that causes confusion, in the region slightly south, it's called "Rullebär" from Danish, instead of "Skottkärra". There's words only being used locally that arent used throughout the country. This on top of pronounciation differences can make it hard to tell if it's a different word they are using or just a difference in pronounciation.

I found this map on Wikipedias Swedish-Estonian people page. I think this is one of the more accurate ones to show the Dialect-areas. I would call this the "parent"-dialects, as you have more ones regionally. But they can be hard to differentiate.


Even if Finland Swedish dialects sound the same to me, I am well aware that phrases and words are vastly different from region to region. The island finish-swedish is easier to understand as they have less loan words from Finland.

I hope some of this makes sense. It's very hard to explain all of this while trying to make sense of it..  ::)


humbert

Quote from: Shadow.97 on November 29, 2022, 04:36 PMI hope some of this makes sense. It's very hard to explain all of this while trying to make sense of it..  ::)

I do understand it. It makes sense. Reminds me of one day I was visiting Buenos Aires. The guy who was with me asked the waitress for something, saying it the way we say it. She didn't understand. I then said the same word how they pronounce it and she understood me.