im new

[Ahmad]

Hello, dear friend 

Pardon me, I realize you've probably explained this to me before, but I'm still confused. I've noticed there are women who use regular veils where you can see their face and hands. Others use the complete black outfit which shows only their eyes. Do I understand you correctly, or is her dress a matter of personal choice as opposed to something either written in law or part of the branch of Islam she practices? From what I've seen both here and on TV, most Islamic women use the regular veil which leaves their faces visible, yet only a small majority use the full black outfit (I forget the name). I've seen that in Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Jordan and others, their faces are unconvered - yet in Iran and Saudi Arabia almost all use the full black dress. I'm believing (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that the Shiite extremists of Iran and the Wahabi fanatics of Saudi Arabia force them to wear the full black dress, yet where these people are not in power (such as the countries I mentioned), most wear just the veil that shows their faces. Naturally if she is Egyptian (for example) and prefers to wear the full black dress, no problem there. Can you clarify this a little further for me, and explain why in Iran and Saudi almost none wear the regular veil?

First, you pardon me.    I do my best to collect the appropriate words to make things clear, so forgive me if I can't make you get what I mean.

... I tell you what is in Islam <not show more than face and hands, and wear wide clothes. It doesn't matter veil or other. The important is to be wide and not showing her beauty, so if veil, then right. If the full black one, then right. If other wide not showing beauty or more than face and hands, then right. All of those are right and she chooses from them>.

... In Egypt, there is no law about women clothing. She wears what she wants. But true Muslim woman wears what I told you just for Allah <Because he said that>.
Also, in Egypt, you'll find all kinds of woman clothing that I mentioned ;;; veil, full black one, and the other wide one. But from what I've seen, the majority here is veil.

... For Iran and Saudi, really I don't know enough about there. But what I'm sure about is the regular veil is perfect. The full black one is not mentioned specifically and for that, I love Egypt and Azhar who made us understand Islam as it is <in justly balanced way> and follow the easier choice as long as it's not forbidden.
A woman wears the full black one if she wants that, or if she is beautiful so as not to be stared at. As here, we can't stare at adult woman.

As for being considered pretty, I understand customs are different all over the world, but here and in Europe I have yet to see a woman become upset if I've complimented her on her physical beauty. Let me give you and example: just the other day in Mexico my wife's niece recently hit puberty and is turning out to be a very nice looking young lady. When I saw her, I said to her in front of her parents "my god, you're becoming a very beautiful young lady; if I were 100 years younger I'd try to be your boyfriend". She smiled and thanked me, and so did her parents. Not only were they not offended, they were greatful! Do I understand you correctly, or is a thing like this, even with an adult woman, viewed as a sign of hostility in Islamic countries?

Here, it's close to this but in limits and according to conditions. For example:
If I have a niece who has recently hit puberty, all of us notice that she becomes more beautiful . I can simply say "You become a beautiful bride" but in front of her parents .
If a lone, then no because it's not normal to see a man and a woman alone and also it may lead to wrong understanding.
On the other side, I can't say to here "You have a beautiful body". This is not here.
Notice the difference between the 2 phrases.
To be more clear, here, there are some phrases known for people to be good and some known to be bad.

An other example, I can't say to a man's wife or an adult woman that she is beautiful. Here in Egypt, it's shame on the boy who said that and people say that he is a bad boy. Also, her husband won't accept that words and also won't accept his wife to be stared at.

Pardon me for asking for clarification, but when we come from very different worlds, it's often not easy to understand the mindset of other cultures.

You're absolutely right and this helps me to learn trying to see how others think, so thank you.
Be well and safe,
Ahmad. 

[humbert]

First, you pardon me.    I do my best to collect the appropriate words to make things clear, so forgive me if I can't make you get what I mean.
... I tell you what is in Islam <not show more than face and hands, and wear wide clothes. It doesn't matter veil or other. The important is to be wide and not showing her beauty, so if veil, then right. If the full black one, then right. If other wide not showing beauty or more than face and hands, then right. All of those are right and she chooses from them>.
... In Egypt, there is no law about women clothing. She wears what she wants. But true Muslim woman wears what I told you just for Allah <Because he said that>.
Also, in Egypt, you'll find all kinds of woman clothing that I mentioned ;;; veil, full black one, and the other wide one. But from what I've seen, the majority here is veil.

OK, let me see if I get this straight once and for all. At least in Egypt (you're not too sure about other Islamic countries), the Islamic religion and not the law says a woman has her choice of either wearing a veil that shows her face and hands or, if she so desires the full black dress that only shows her eyes. We are talking a matter of personal choice only. Both must be baggy so as not to show if she has a good figure. Assuming this is the case, I suppose the only question is why would any woman wear the full black dress during the summer, where temperatures over there are well over 40°C. Then again, I suppose it's her decision which must be respected.

Regarding what I told you about my wife's niece, your answer makes perfect sense and, if said to her in front of her parents, there is no offense. Now that that's clear, let's go on to adult women. Suppose you met a very pretty Egyptian lady your age or older somewhere. Would it be proper to simply start a polite chat with her? Would she actually become upset if after a while you told her she was beautiful AND had a nice figure, or would she consider this offensive? I'm asking because, as I told you before, in absolutely every place I've chatted with a lady and went so far as to tell her these 2 things, in my cultures (American and Latin) not once have I encountered a situation where the woman became upset, on the contrary, they smiled and thanked me. Naturally I refer only to my comments on her looks, never did I say something like "let's go to bed" because that probably would be considered offensive. From my perspective, telling her I believe she's beautiful and inviting her for sex constitute 2 very different things. How is it over there? Also, be advised when I said "over there", are we talking about the Arab culture or the Islamic religion? As you of course know, although many people in the world tend to equate them, they are by no means the same thing. As you of course know, the largest Islamic countries in terms of population are not located in the Middle East and similarly, these people are Muslims but not Arabs.

I think a response to this would pretty much clear this up for me, and I can finally get a handle on all this. You can't begin to believe how different cultures in this world can be. What one culture considers anathema is perfectly fine somewhere else, and accordingly making innocent mistakes is easy. As a quick example, I learned that over there (not sure if this is Arab or Islamic), shaking a woman's hand is considered highly improper. Here it's totally the other way around -- not shaking a woman's hand if you just met her is a sign of bad manners.
See my point?

Take care,
Humbert 

[Ahmad]

OK, let me see if I get this straight once and for all. At least in Egypt (you're not too sure about other Islamic countries), the Islamic religion and not the law says a woman has her choice of either wearing a veil that shows her face and hands or, if she so desires the full black dress that only shows her eyes. We are talking a matter of personal choice only. Both must be baggy so as not to show if she has a good figure. Assuming this is the case, I suppose the only question is why would any woman wear the full black dress during the summer, where temperatures over there are well over 40°C. Then again, I suppose it's her decision which must be respected.

Yes, you're right in this understanding. Islam religion says that she should wear baggy clothes, not transparent, not showing more than face and hands. Islam doesn't specify a particular kind of clothing. If any clothing does the mentioned required job, then it's OK.
So, it was taken from previous generations that veil is an appropriate one as it does the job.

Regarding in Summer, I think each woman does what she is assured with.
As you know, she has many choices and she picks the one that she is convinced with and then she becomes used with it.
For me, I love the veil or any baggy non transparent clothing showing no more than face and hands.
If a woman is very beautiful, her husband becomes so afraid that she'll be stared at. So, he asks her to cover her face if she can do this for him to be more assured.
As here, when a woman is married, she is only for her husband and he is only for her.

Suppose you met a very pretty Egyptian lady your age or older somewhere. Would it be proper to simply start a polite chat with her? Would she actually become upset if after a while you told her she was beautiful AND had a nice figure, or would she consider this offensive?

This is forbidden in Islam. So, simply, people avoid this as much as they can. But some guys do that and then they've made a mistake and they know.
If a woman is a true Muslim woman, she'll be upset with those words because she knows that this is forbidden. If other Muslim woman who doesn't stick to Islam instructions strongly, she may not be upset with those words.
But here, no guy says those words to a woman wearing veil <for example> because he knows that she won't accept that.
Also, no man accepts a guy saying those words to his wife or his sister. It's a very sensitive matter here.

Conclusion:
Talking to a stranger woman should be in necessity like in work <for example>.
And this talking shouldn't be chatting. <Go directly to the point>

Shaking woman's hands is not preferred here. You'd better say Hello.
It may have a reason ;;; If a man want to pray, he washes himself (do Ablution before praying). If he shakes a woman's hands, he should do Ablution again to pray.
So, old people are used with not shaking women's hands and then the next generations and so on...

Be well and safe.

[humbert]

Yes, you're right in this understanding. Islam religion says that she should wear baggy clothes, not transparent, not showing more than face and hands. Islam doesn't specify a particular kind of clothing. If any clothing does the mentioned required job, then it's OK.
So, it was taken from previous generations that veil is an appropriate one as it does the job.

OK, understood. It's just a religious thing.

If a woman is very beautiful, her husband becomes so afraid that she'll be stared at. So, he asks her to cover her face if she can do this for him to be more assured.
As here, when a woman is married, she is only for her husband and he is only for her.

The concept of monogamy is certainly not new, it's been around forever -- and so has adultery. Be that as it may, while jealousy is by no means restricted to the Arab or Islamic world, from what I'm seeing it's a little more "extreme" (for lack of a better word) over there, and I'm under the impression it's more of a cultural thing. Speaking personally, I'd be flattered if another man found my wife beautiful, but not all men think that way. Naturally I refer to my 2 cultures.

This is forbidden in Islam. So, simply, people avoid this as much as they can. But some guys do that and then they've made a mistake and they know.
If a woman is a true Muslim woman, she'll be upset with those words because she knows that this is forbidden. If other Muslim woman who doesn't stick to Islam instructions strongly, she may not be upset with those words.
But here, no guy says those words to a woman wearing veil <for example> because he knows that she won't accept that.
Also, no man accepts a guy saying those words to his wife or his sister. It's a very sensitive matter here.
Conclusion:
Talking to a stranger woman should be in necessity like in work <for example>.
And this talking shouldn't be chatting. <Go directly to the point>

Given all this, then please explain to me how Egyptian men and women court each other There must be some sort of acceptable form of courtship, otherwise there will simply be no reproduction and hence no more Egyptians. Or is it that marriages are arranged by the parents (or something like that)?

Shaking woman's hands is not preferred here. You'd better say Hello.
It may have a reason ;;; If a man want to pray, he washes himself (do Ablution before praying). If he shakes a woman's hands, he should do Ablution again to pray.
So, old people are used with not shaking women's hands and then the next generations and so on...

This that you explained, again are we talking something religious or cultural? Also, why does a man have to do Ablution again to pray if he touches a woman? Are women considered unclean? I can understand a cultural or religious prohibition against shaking hands, but what I can't figure out is the reason for another ablution.

Thanks for answering all my questions so openly. It's the only way to learn. 

[Ahmad]

Speaking personally, I'd be flattered if another man found my wife beautiful, but not all men think that way. Naturally I refer to my 2 cultures.

This is not here. If you tell a man here that his wife is beautiful, he'll be angry.

Given all this, then please explain to me how Egyptian men and women court each other There must be some sort of acceptable form of courtship, otherwise there will simply be no reproduction and hence no more Egyptians. Or is it that marriages are arranged by the parents (or something like that)?

Courtship is happening here all the time and by many ways as not all people do exactly what Islam says and life goes on.
But an appropriate way is: suppose you meet a woman you like. You simply can ask her about her address to meet her parents. Then you can engage her and know each other. If you can't understand each other, you can leave each other and this happens frequently without being broken.

Are women considered unclean? I can understand a cultural or religious prohibition against shaking hands, but what I can't figure out is the reason for another ablution.

No, it is not like that especially in ablution. It's a religious thing that has no thinking.
But this may clarify;;

In Islam, ablution <We call it "Wudoo"> is washing some body parts in a special arrangement. <It's very fast>
So, even if a man is very clean, he must do ablution before praying.

There are some things that invalidates wudoo <requires re-doing wudoo>. From them is touching a stranger woman and getting aroused <by shaking hands without glove>. There is another saying that any touching to a stranger woman invalidates wudoo <it doesn't matter you get aroused or not>.
So, people take precautions and do wudoo again when shaking woman hands.
But some people prefer not to shake woman hands at all to avoid getting aroused and think badly. So, it doesn't mean that woman is unclean but for protection of wudoo as it is not just washing and cleaning but it has a wisdom known by Allah.

BTW, if you follow any of the two previous sayings, you're right.... i.e:
It happened to me before to meet a relative woman when going to pray. She wants to shake hands, so I simply did and went to pray without re-doing wudoo and I'm right because I didn't get aroused. If I re-did wudoo <for precautions> , I would be right either. <Even better>
Anyway, every time you do wudoo, you have mercy from Allah, so people love this wudoo.

Another info; When we have more than 1 saying in a situation in Islam, if you do any saying from them, you'll be right because this is an important rule in Islam to make it easy <not extreme> and this rule is "Mercy of the difference" on condition that this saying has evidence from our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets> or his companions doing so.
So, I always love to take the easier one and Allah is at the expectations of the person. So, I expect he will accept, so he <the merciful> accepts.

Have an excellent life,
Your friend. 

[humbert]

Courtship is happening here all the time and by many ways as not all people do exactly what Islam says and life goes on.
But an appropriate way is: suppose you meet a woman you like. You simply can ask her about her address to meet her parents. Then you can engage her and know each other. If you can't understand each other, you can leave each other and this happens frequently without being broken.

Of course courtship is happening all the time  . I refuse to believe that all 90 million Egyptians came from artificial insemination or in-vitro fertilization  . Your explanation is fine, but how far do local customs allow you to go? For example, if you found a girl you liked and asked to visit her house and meet her parents, after that's done can you now take her out to <for example> a coffee shop or a movie without a chaperone? Can there be a situation where you two are alone and, if so, what if you wanted to hold her hand and kiss her (or vice versa)? What are the local customs concerning this?

Are women considered unclean? I can understand a cultural or religious prohibition against shaking hands, but what I can't figure out is the reason for another ablution.

No, it is not like that especially in ablution. It's a religious thing that has no thinking.
But this may clarify;;
In Islam, ablution <We call it "Wudoo"> is washing some body parts in a special arrangement. <It's very fast>
So, even if a man is very clean, he must do ablution before praying.

I'm familiar with Wudoo because Maher explained it to me. What I didn't know what that, according to Islam, simply touching a woman invalidates it. As you explained, it's a religious commandment that's just there and has no explanation

It happened to me before to meet a relative woman when going to pray. She wants to shake hands, so I simply did and went to pray without re-doing wudoo and I'm right because I didn't get aroused. If I re-did wudoo <for precautions> , I would be right either. <Even better>
Anyway, every time you do wudoo, you have mercy from Allah, so people love this wudoo.

A woman wanted to shake your hand? I thought this was forbidden. Then again, you mention she was a relative. Are female relatives exempt from this rule?

You know, I went to the pharmacy the other day and right in front of me was a woman wearing an Islamic veil. Naturally my curiosity got the best of me, and I promptly remembered everything both you and Maher warned me what to do and what NOT to do. Keeping a safe distance of 2 meters or more, I asked her if she was Sunni. When she said "no", I responded, "you are not Muslim", to which she responded, "oh, I misunderstood you, I thought you were referring to a girl's name. Yes, I am Sunni." Finally I asked her where she was originally from, and she said "Jerusalem", to which I replied, "oh, Palestine" (being extremely careful not to say "Israel" instead). We then said goodbye. She was very nice and not the slightest bit offended.

I do have a question, though. Although she was wearing a baggy, long sleeved blouse together with a white veil, she was also wearing blue jeans, which showed her figure (not very pretty, I might add). My question -- was she in violation of the Islamic female dress code because of this?

[Ahmad]

Your explanation is fine, but how far do local customs allow you to go? For example, if you found a girl you liked and asked to visit her house and meet her parents, after that's done can you now take her out to <for example> a coffee shop or a movie without a chaperone? Can there be a situation where you two are alone and, if so, what if you wanted to hold her hand and kiss her (or vice versa)? What are the local customs concerning this?

If you're asking about local customs, It happens that he takes her out without a chaperone and he holds her hands but NO kissing.

For people who stick well to Islam, she can't be alone with him without chaperone.

In every society, you'll see every type of everything but there is a most common thing which is local custom.

A woman wanted to shake your hand? I thought this was forbidden. Then again, you mention she was a relative. Are female relatives exempt from this rule?

In local customs, shaking woman's hands happens normally. But In Islam, it's either not preferred or not allowed <Really I don't know the exact rule about that in Islam as it is not such big like kissing for example but what I'm sure about is that it's better not to do>.

When I say a stranger woman, it means every woman I can marry, whether she is a relative or not.

I want to clarify something ;;;
Here, when the thing is extremely forbidden <A big sin>, you'll never see any Muslim doing it in public like kissing a stranger woman for example or adultery which is a very big sin. Even local customs will never accept it and all people know that it's a big sin.
But if it's a small sin, then many people may not even know that it is a sin and they do it normally as they don't know and then, you may see it in local customs.

But once the person knows that something is a sin even if it is small, he should avoid it immediately, because Allah was forgiving him as he didn't know but now he knows.

I do have a question, though. Although she was wearing a baggy, long sleeved blouse together with a white veil, she was also wearing blue jeans, which showed her figure (not very pretty, I might add). My question -- was she in violation of the Islamic female dress code because of this?

Yes, she must wear baggy, non transparent clothes from head to foot with the exception of face and hands. It is not correct to wear baggy above and tight below !!!   

[humbert]

If you're asking about local customs, It happens that he takes her out without a chaperone and he holds her hands but NO kissing.
For people who stick well to Islam, she can't be alone with him without chaperone.
In every society, you'll see every type of everything but there is a most common thing which is local custom.
In local customs, shaking woman's hands happens normally. But In Islam, it's either not preferred or not allowed <Really I don't know the exact rule about that in Islam as it is not such big like kissing for example but what I'm sure about is that it's better not to do>.

I'm glad in this post (and hopefully from now on) you'll clarify for me what rules are based on local customs and which are based on religious beliefs. To me this distinction is absolutely critical due to the simple fact that just about everywhere you go, you'll find that the 2 clash. Not only that, in all religions some people follow it to a greater degree than others. A simple example -- in the Catholic religion, birth control is not allowed. However, easily 80% of Catholics do not follow this rule, and I don't mean just where I live.

I want to clarify something ;;;
Here, when the thing is extremely forbidden <A big sin>, you'll never see any Muslim doing it in public like kissing a stranger woman for example or adultery which is a very big sin. Even local customs will never accept it and all people know that it's a big sin.
But if it's a small sin, then many people may not even know that it is a sin and they do it normally as they don't know and then, you may see it in local customs.

You mentioned something interesting. OK, I accept the fact that in Egypt, public kissing between men and women is unacceptable, both in local customs and religiously. Let me ask you this question since you've opened the door for me. I ask because I know and respect your deep Islamic convictions, but at the same time you're a flesh and blood human being with hormones circulating in your bloodstream. Have you ever met a girl about your age that you were attracted to and, of course, she to you? I don't know the answer, but let's say in this example that you did. You asked for and obtained permission to visit her parent's house and were liked by them, to the point that they had no objection to your taking her out without a chaperone to <for example> a restaurant for dinner. During the conversation both of you begin to feel very strongly attracted to each other. You smile at each other and hold hands, slowly ever tighter. The meal is over, it is night and somehow you and her find a private place where no one is watching. Both of you have hormones raging and want to just hug and kiss each other passionately. Let's stop here for a second. I can assure you of one thing -- in a situation like this [to explain it medically], your lymbic system (and hers) will take over and overwhelm the frontal cortex. This is no sin, crime or offense -- it is simply being human. Has something like this happened to you, or if not, to a trusted friend you know?

I might add that finding a place all to yourselves in a crowded city like Cairo would be difficult. But then again, you don't live there.

Let me know because I'm curious, especially given the fact that it was precisely Allah who made you (and her) this way. In fact, without these situations there would probably be no procreation, with the exception of an arranged marriage (not much fun).

Take great care my friend
Humbert 

[Ahmad]

Has something like this happened to you, or if not, to a trusted friend you know?

NO, it didn't happen neither to me nor any friend. But, I won't tell that it doesn't happen here.

Let me know because I'm curious, especially given the fact that it was precisely Allah who made you (and her) this way. In fact, without these situations there would probably be no procreation, with the exception of an arranged marriage (not much fun).

I'm with you that Allah made us this way [Human flesh and blood with hormones, feelings and desires] BUT for testing, differentiate people's degrees and forgiveness. >>>  He didn't create us in vain, but for purpose.

He made us weak against what we want to do >> to see who will overcome his desires and train himself to do what Allah wants, not himself >>  And this one will be great and beloved by Allah.
Also to see who can't overcome his desires and does mistakes >> if he regrets what he has done, asks for forgiveness and decide not to do that again >> this one is also great and beloved from Allah on condition that he truly won't do that sin again.

So, we live in a big difficult test but also the prize is so expensive and valuable from Allah and believe me when a person prevents himself from doing what he wants just to do what Allah wants >> That's because of Allah who has endeared the faith to us, and has made it beautiful in our hearts, and he has made hateful to us unbelief and wrongdoing.

Another thing regarding your question is that Allah from the beginning ordered us not to be alone with a stranger woman so as not to fall in what you know <kissing and finally adultery> because he knows that we are weak because he made us.

What you've said is a gradual approach with a gradual increase in sin and all of this begins with being a lone with a stranger woman. So, if we do what Allah told us and avoid being a lone with a stranger woman, it won't reach that limit of being very attracted and aroused. So, the man brings that to himself. Why doesn't he be patient till marriage ?!!  and why doesn't he just do what Allah wants ?!!  What will harm him in that ?!!
I see that man is, in most things, contentious and arguing ;; no more.

But also here in local customs <which allows getting out together>, every guy/girl knows his/her limits that must not be approached even if alone and even if he/she doesn't know about religion.

Conclusion:
I feel like any man towards women but if I avoid what Allah told me to avoid, It'll be easy.
If I approach more, It'll be difficult and I may sin.
If I sin, then I ask for forgiveness and I'll get it but not do that again.
If I sin and don't care, do what you want now but after that, don't ask to be treated like those who struggle.

somehow you and her find a private place where no one is watching.

Then, where is Allah ?!!  Believe me, we are very aware that Allah is watching.

I might add that finding a place all to yourselves in a crowded city like Cairo would be difficult. But then again, you don't live there.

Even if a lone in a desert, and even if I want that inside me, I never love to do that !!!

Although I have those feelings, hormones and desire, I'm very aware that if I did that, I'll gain nothing but regret and sadness after that.
I'm not saying that I don't sin. I have many sins but not those big ones and I ask Allah to help me never fall in one of them and forgive my small ones because, really, I love not to sin ever. But Only the prophets are so !!

Sorry for this long speech, but to be clear as possible.
Take care. 

[humbert]

Sorry for this long speech, but to be clear as possible.
Take care. 

Not a problem. You explained everything clearly, which is what I was looking for.

Let me ask you something else -- what exactly is the Islamic view of polygamy? Let me explain why I'm asking. Back in 1937, Ibin Saud managed to unify all 7 kingdoms of the Arabian peninsula creating what is today Saudi Arabia (he renamed the country after his family). In the process, King Saud married all 7 princesses (or queens, not exactly sure) of the other kingdoms. I've also heard stories of some Arab/Islamic men having more than one wife. Naturally in every case we're talking rich men since obviously having many wives (and their children) costs plenty of money. I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that even the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) had more than one wife, and in fact condemned celibacy.

What, then, is the religion's official policy on this topic?