im new

[Ahmad]

Let me ask you something else -- what exactly is the Islamic view of polygamy? Let me explain why I'm asking. Back in 1937, Ibin Saud managed to unify all 7 kingdoms of the Arabian peninsula creating what is today Saudi Arabia (he renamed the country after his family). In the process, King Saud married all 7 princesses (or queens, not exactly sure) of the other kingdoms. I've also heard stories of some Arab/Islamic men having more than one wife. Naturally in every case we're talking rich men since obviously having many wives (and their children) costs plenty of money. I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that even the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) had more than one wife, and in fact condemned celibacy.

What, then, is the religion's official policy on this topic?

First, I don't know those things about King Saud !!
Second, I'm not expert about these details in Islam religion, but what I & everyone know in The Holy Qur'an is :

In Islam, a man can have up to 4 wives at the same time, ON CONDITION
He can afford that and he will treat them fairly.... i.e. >>  never differentiate between them in treatment or gifts. ALL are the same to him.

Regarding our prophet Muhammad <Peace be upon him and all the prophets>, He is a special case in that <He has some special Characteristics only to him not to others>. He had more than 4 wives, but by the order of Allah and for purposes. After that, Allah ordered him not to marry any other woman and said to us that it's extremely forbidden to marry his wives after his death. <This is in The Holy Qur'an>

Regarding celibacy, Our prophet told us this:
If a guy can marry >>> then, marry.
If a guy can NOT marry >>> then, does his best in fasting <Fasting like in month, Ramadan when we do NOT eat or drink or doing copulation between a husband and his wife from dawn to sunset>.

Be well and safe, dear friend. 

[humbert]

First, I don't know those things about King Saud !! [regarding having 7 wives]
Second, I'm not expert about these details in Islam religion, but what I & everyone know in The Holy Qur'an is :
In Islam, a man can have up to 4 wives at the same time, ON CONDITION
He can afford that and he will treat them fairly.... i.e. >>  never differentiate between them in treatment or gifts. ALL are the same to him.

As certainly you're aware, in Islam even the King must follow the Holy Qur'an and the rules dictated there. But also as you know, like all religions, Islam is subdivided into different "branches" (for lack of a better words). While the Saudis are Sunnis, they (or at least the Saud family) belongs to a branch known as the Wahabis, which if famous for their strict laws. Notice, for example, that there is no religious police in Egypt, while that's certainly not the case in Saudi Arabia. I'm thinking the Wahabis believe a man can have as many wives as he can afford. In fact, notice that when I asked you the question originally, I specifically mentioned "rich men", clearly meaning that he must be able to provide for them in every way. Also, always keep in mind the fact that I know you're not an expert in Islam, you simply belong to the religion. It is impossible to anyone to respond to a question to which he doesn't know the answer.

Regarding our prophet Muhammad <Peace be upon him and all the prophets>, He is a special case in that <He has some special Characteristics only to him not to others>. He had more than 4 wives, but by the order of Allah and for purposes. After that, Allah ordered him not to marry any other woman and said to us that it's extremely forbidden to marry his wives after his death. <This is in The Holy Qur'an>

I don't fully understand something. Are you saying married women cannot re-marry if their husbands die?

Regarding celibacy, Our prophet told us this:
If a guy can marry >>> then, marry.
If a guy can NOT marry >>> then, does his best in fasting <Fasting like in month, Ramadan when we do NOT eat or drink or doing copulation between a husband and his wife from dawn to sunset>.

This is a serious question and not a joke. During Ramadan at night, if a guy for whatever reason gets aroused, since he's not permitted to be with his wife sexually, can he just go to the bathroom and relieve himself -- or would he have to hold off until sunrise?

Another thing -- does Islam specifically prohibit sex outside of marriage? Here, the vast majority of people are Christian (combining all it's different branches). Many if not all of those brances have that rule -- the only thing is that here nobody obeys it. 

Be well and safe, dear friend. 

Absolutely -- same to you! 

[Ahmad]

First, It has been a long time, dear friend. 
Anyway, nice to hear from you again. 

I'm thinking the Wahabis believe a man can have as many wives as he can afford

I'm sure Wahabis are NOT so.
Because, all Sunni Muslims CAN'T differ in a big case like that. They differ from each other in only small things <a man like me can't notice these changes>.
And this which gives us free choice to do any of them and we'll be right <Mercy of the Difference rule>. I told you about this rule before here:
http://www.nomaher.com/forum/index.php?topic=366.msg2923#msg2923

But in how many wives ??!!  It's so obvious in the Holy Qur'an.

But as I told you, I'm not expert. I heard before that there are special rare cases when a man can have more than 4 women but only 4 of them are wives and the others are in less degree <not called wife>. But these cases are very rare and not seen anymore because they require special conditions.... <may be slavery or prisoner of war... not sure>
But really, I can't tell in this because I don't know enough about it. I only heard about it before but can't remember exactly. So king Saud may be right.

There is another thing to clarify. To be rich is not enough to marry more than one. You must keep in mind that you have to treat them fairly. No minimum difference between them. If you can't do that <It's a big responsibility>, marry only one so as not to be a sinner.

Who I know that they are very away from us <even not from us as Muslims> are some branches of Shiite like in Iran and the president of Syria "Bashar". They have illusions in their head. <not from The Holy Qur'an or from what our prophet said>

I don't fully understand something. Are you saying married women cannot re-marry if their husbands die?

NO.  Of course they can marry.
It's a special case, only for our prophet's wives. Allah ordered our prophet not to marry other than them and said that it's extremely forbidden for them to marry after his death and also said that when they married our prophet, they became like our mothers.
And a man can't marry his mother.

This is a serious question and not a joke. During Ramadan at night, if a guy for whatever reason gets aroused, since he's not permitted to be with his wife sexually

In Ramadan, we hold from just before sunrise <dawn> till sunset. After that <during night>, a man can be with his wife sexually as usual. But when dawn comes, we hold again till sunset.

Another thing -- does Islam specifically prohibit sex outside of marriage?

YES.  No sex outside of marriage.

Peace. 

[humbert]

I'm sure Wahabis are NOT so.
Because, all Sunni Muslims CAN'T differ in a big case like that. They differ from each other in only small things <a man like me can't notice these changes>.
And this which gives us free choice to do any of them and we'll be right <Mercy of the Difference rule>. I told you about this rule before here:
http://www.nomaher.com/forum/index.php?topic=366.msg2923#msg2923
But as I told you, I'm not expert. I heard before that there are special rare cases when a man can have more than 4 women but only 4 of them are wives and the others are in less degree <not called wife>. But these cases are very rare and not seen anymore because they require special conditions.... <may be slavery or prisoner of war... not sure>
But really, I can't tell in this because I don't know enough about it. I only heard about it before but can't remember exactly. So king Saud may be right.

As for King Saud, I'd speculate that his was a political decision much more than a religious one, since I believe it was the only way he could unite the Arabian peninsula under his family. Then again, religiously speaking the King may have been what the Catholic bishops here call a "pick and choose Catholic", only Muslim in his case. Basically what the bishops are mad about is the fact that the vast majority of Catholics follow some rules of their religion but not all. It's very common and acceptable here for an unmarried couple living together to go to Church every Sunday, despite the fact that their religion specifically prohibits it. Of course I mentioned the example of my Libyan friend who had been in a mosque earlier that Friday and I found him at a bar that same night drinking alcohol. This sort of thing is common in all religions, not just the ones I mentioned. While I have never traveled anywhere in North Africa or the Middle East, I can absolutely guarantee that not all Egyptian muslims pray 5 times a day.

In Ramadan, we hold from just before sunrise <dawn> till sunset. After that <during night>, a man can be with his wife sexually as usual. But when dawn comes, we hold again till sunset.

I'm a little confused here. Is it during the DAY that you're not permitted to eat (forget the sex part for a second), or is it at night? Or do we have a case where there are things you can do during the day (such as eat), and things permitted only at night (such as being with your wife)?

Thanks for all the answers and generally for being so patient with me.

Take great care,
Humbert

[Ahmad]

Then again, religiously speaking the King may have been what the Catholic bishops here call a "pick and choose Catholic", only Muslim in his case.

Believe me, we don't have such things in Islam.
Everyone from the king to the least one are under Islam orders.
No one can do anything outside that saying that he is a king or a man of religion or whatever because Islam orders are so clear for all.
We can only choose between things which we have more than one saying about, and all these things are small <not big like how many wives>. Also those small things must have been approved by our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets> so as to do any of them.

So, king Saud can't marry more than 4 wives at the same time saying he is the king !!
He is obligated with Islam orders. If he does other than that, he is a big sinner.
EXCEPT for those rare cases I told about.

Of course I mentioned the example of my Libyan friend who had been in a mosque earlier that Friday and I found him at a bar that same night drinking alcohol. This sort of thing is common in all religions, not just the ones I mentioned. While I have never traveled anywhere in North Africa or the Middle East, I can absolutely guarantee that not all Egyptian muslims pray 5 times a day.

Of course I'm with you in this. Everyone <except prophets> is a sinner, big or small. And he can't avoid to be a sinner. Also here, many people don't even pray 5 times a day and some drink alcohol and some steal. However, no one of them can marry more than 4 wives because everyone of them knows clearly that it's so big sin. Even this is not present on their minds to think about !!

But finally I say that this happens like any other sin, but very rare.
Regarding king Saud, really I don't know about his conditions. So he might be right. And I can't say anything wrong about him because if I say something bad that is not in him or in anyone, I'll be a big sinner. So forgive me about this.

I'm a little confused here. Is it during the DAY that you're not permitted to eat (forget the sex part for a second), or is it at night?

It is during NIGHT that we are permitted to eat and drink and a man can be with his wife sexually.

Thanks for all the answers and generally for being so patient with me.

Anytime, dear friend. 

Be well and safe.

[humbert]

Believe me, we don't have such things in Islam.
Everyone from the king to the least one are under Islam orders.
No one can do anything outside that saying that he is a king or a man of religion or whatever because Islam orders are so clear for all.
We can only choose between things which we have more than one saying about, and all these things are small <not big like how many wives>. Also those small things must have been approved by our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets> so as to do any of them.

Please keep in mind that when I said that the King may have been a "pick and choose" Muslim, I never said or implied that was he did was correct under rules stated in the Holy Qur'an. This is precisely the argument the Bishops have here. They're saying exactly what you're saying -- that as a Catholic it is illegal to simply decide what laws you want to obey and discard those you don't. Naturally, my Libyan friends falls under the same category, and he too is Muslim. See my point? As I said before, he might have decided to purposely disobey the Qur'an for political reasons.

It is during NIGHT that we are permitted to eat and drink and a man can be with his wife sexually.

As you're aware, the sexual part of this is the easy part -- anyone can be without sex for 12 hours or more without sacrifice. What I find hard to understand is the eating and drinking part. For example, do you set your alarm clock real early so you can get up for a strong breakfast before sunrise? If you work or go to school, must you also do so during Ramadan even if you can't eat or drink water? If so, it must take quite a bit of sacrifice  . Also, do Muslims determine day and night the way the Jews do? In their religion, the next day begins as sunset. They simply go to any weather web site (as I just did) and look at the time the sun will set (or rise). For example, if I were Jewish and tomorrow were an important holiday where sacrifices must be made, I now know that the sun here will set at 19:45, and it is that time I have to keep an eye on my watch for. It may seem a little late, but keep in mind we just changed over to DST (time 1 hour ahead in summer). BTW, do you also have DST in Egypt?

Anytime, dear friend. 

Many, many thanks for your answers.

Take care,
Humbert

[Ahmad]

I never said or implied that was he did was correct under rules stated in the Holy Qur'an.

OK, understood. 

Naturally, my Libyan friends falls under the same category, and he too is Muslim. See my point? As I said before, he might have decided to purposely disobey the Qur'an for political reasons.

Since everyone knows the good and the bad, he is free of choice to do what he wants now <either good or bad>. But, there is a certain day for gaining the results of his work !!
So, he'd better be wise and pick the good.

What I find hard to understand is the eating and drinking part. For example, do you set your alarm clock real early so you can get up for a strong breakfast before sunrise? If you work or go to school, must you also do so during Ramadan even if you can't eat or drink water? If so, it must take quite a bit of sacrifice  . Also, do Muslims determine day and night the way the Jews do? In their religion, the next day begins as sunset.

FIRST, the day to us starts just before Sunrise with about 1 Hour & 30 Min.
This time is the time of Dawn, when we have a pray from the 5 prays to do daily called "Dawn pray". And the day ends with Sunset when we also have a "Sunset pray" and then, the night starts and lasts till the time of Dawn.

We know the time of Sunrise and Sunset from any weather website. Also, we have here, in every house, a calender with those important times of praying and sunset and sunrise every day during the whole year.

Regarding your question about a strong breakfast, yes. We set our alarm clock to getup before Dawn and eat something and drink. It doesn't matter whether it's a strong or weak breakfast. Anything to eat and drink will help a lot, especially Dates <kind of fruit>.
But it's important to eat and drink before dawn, as our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets> recommended that to us and he was doing so.

Regarding sacrifice, really we become used to fast.
It's only the first day of fasting when we feel some tire. But after that it's so normal.
Ramadan is the best month to Allah and it's the time of patience and doing our best in praying to Allah. And for Allah, it's a time <but not the only time> of great mercy and forgiveness.

Really, we wish that the whole year is Ramadan as we feel great comfort and relief inside our souls during it.

BTW, do you also have DST in Egypt?

We had it until the last year. It was cancelled after the revolution. I don't know why, but I'm glad because I was hating changing the time.
Even Microsoft has updated that in Windows XP ;;; When I installed Maher's October release, I found that they have hidden the checkbox of "Automatically adjust clock for daylight saving changes" in "Time Zone" tab when I adjust it to Cairo.

Many, many thanks for your answers.

Again, anytime, dear friend. 

Be always well and safe.

[humbert]

FIRST, the day to us starts just before Sunrise with about 1 Hour & 30 Min.
This time is the time of Dawn, when we have a pray from the 5 prays to do daily called "Dawn pray". And the day ends with Sunset when we also have a "Sunset pray" and then, the night starts and lasts till the time of Dawn.
We know the time of Sunrise and Sunset from any weather website. Also, we have here, in every house, a calender with those important times of praying and sunset and sunrise every day during the whole year.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. Let's suppose you knew sunrise would be at 06:30 (just to name an hour). Does this mean that the day begins at 05:00? If this were during Ramadan, does this mean you must eat your breakfast before 05:00 (never after) and say your dawn prayers between 05:00 and 06:30? What about any other month outside of Ramadan? While I understand that there are no restrictions as far as when to eat, must you still get up well before 06:30 to pray?

Also, about how long does a typical prayer session take? I remember asking our fearless leader what exactly did prayer consist of, and he responded by saying that basically it's a combination of reading from the Holy Qur'an and asking Allah for things pretty much on your own. What I forgot to ask him was to give me an idea of how much time it takes. I'm asking because, if we're talking [for example] 20 minutes, then clearly you don't have to get up as early as 05:00. Also, is dusk or night based on the same principle? Assuming the sun will set tonight at 19:00, during Ramadan must you wait until that hour to eat something, or can you eat as early as 17:30? Must dusk prayers also happen between 17:30 and 19:00?

Regarding your question about a strong breakfast, yes. We set our alarm clock to getup before Dawn and eat something and drink. It doesn't matter whether it's a strong or weak breakfast. Anything to eat and drink will help a lot, especially Dates <kind of fruit>.
But it's important to eat and drink before dawn, as our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets> recommended that to us and he was doing so.

I'm familiar with dates, in fact if I wanted one, all I'd have to do is go to a supermarket about 2 km away from my house and buy it. I asked my wife and she tells me they're even available in Mexico, the only thing is that there, by simple local custom, they are mostly eaten during Christmas time. In case you're not familiar, Christians believe they are celebrating the birthday of Jesus. Of course I know that in actuality this isn't right -- nowhere in the Christian Bible does it state Jesus' birthday. The day was chosen because when their missionaries were trying to convert pagans in Northern Europe, the learned that the winter solstice was very important to them simply because it was the time the days would start to get longer and free them from constant darkness. The missionaries conveniently told them "Our Lord was also born on the winter solstice" for no other reason that to make it easier to convert them. The only problem was that at the time, their calendar was slightly off and it was believed the solstice occurred on December 25. The whole thing just stuck.

Really, we wish that the whole year is Ramadan as we feel great comfort and relief inside our souls during it.

Are you saying you feel comfortable with the idea of the sacrifices that have to be made, or better yet, that somehow you will not feel as close to Allah despite the fact that He's around the rest of the year as well?

We had it until the last year. It was cancelled after the revolution. I don't know why, but I'm glad because I was hating changing the time.
Even Microsoft has updated that in Windows XP ;;; When I installed Maher's October release, I found that they have hidden the checkbox of "Automatically adjust clock for daylight saving changes" in "Time Zone" tab when I adjust it to Cairo.

I agree with you totally. I absolutely hate this idea of changing the clock, and even more so when in 2006 the law here was changed so DST would start the second weekend in March and end the first weekend in November, in effect giving up one more month of it. I believe this was done to be in step with Europe, without taking into consideration that they are on a much higher latitude that we are and thus it's easier for them. I especially hate it in March when they put the clock forward. As a medical student, you know that the human circadian system is roughly 25 hours. This is why in every experiment that has been done where someone has been locked in a room with no clock or sunlight, in a matter of days his body will be totally out of sync with a typical solar day.

Again, anytime, dear friend. 

I really appreciate your taking the time to answer me.

Take good care 

[Ahmad]

Let me see if I understand you correctly. Let's suppose you knew sunrise would be at 06:30 (just to name an hour). Does this mean that the day begins at 05:00? If this were during Ramadan, does this mean you must eat your breakfast before 05:00 (never after) and say your dawn prayers between 05:00 and 06:30? What about any other month outside of Ramadan? While I understand that there are no restrictions as far as when to eat, must you still get up well before 06:30 to pray?

YES.
In Ramadan, we eat something before 05.00, then we pray at 05.00, then we wait until sunset.
And YES, we must do the Dawn pray everyday in our life at its time. Not all people do this pray in its time and so they miss it. But they must train themselves to get up and do it.

Also, about how long does a typical prayer session take? I remember asking our fearless leader what exactly did prayer consist of, and he responded by saying that basically it's a combination of reading from the Holy Qur'an and asking Allah for things pretty much on your own. What I forgot to ask him was to give me an idea of how much time it takes.

If you pray at mosque, it takes about 10 min. But if at home, your decision, make it short or long. You can do it in about 5 min or more.

I'm asking because, if we're talking [for example] 20 minutes, then clearly you don't have to get up as early as 05:00. Also, is dusk or night based on the same principle? Assuming the sun will set tonight at 19:00, during Ramadan must you wait until that hour to eat something, or can you eat as early as 17:30?

YES, I can get up and pray at <for example> 06.15 AM. But then I'll do it a lone at home. If I want to do it at mosque, I must do it at its time 05.00 AM.
The most important thing is to do it before sunrise <06.30 AM> or you'll miss it.
i.e.   I have about 01.30 hour to do the dawn pray from the beginning of its time.

Suppose sunset at 19.00, then this is the exact time of the dusk pray and also this is the exact time when we can eat or drink.
I can drink some water and go to pray <for about 5 min as they do this pray faster>, then come back and eat.

Must dusk prayers also happen between 17:30 and 19:00?

NO, its time begins at 19.00, then we can't do it before 19.00.
Its time starts from 19.00 and lasts about 01.20 hour till the next pray which is the last one.

To make it clear ;;;
We have 5 prays each day;;;
1-) The first one is the dawn pray <We call it Al Fajr> which its time begins from before sunrise for about 01.30 hour till sunrise
2-) The second one <We call it Al Dhuhr> which its time begins when the sun is in the middle of the sky [straight above you]... i.e.  at 12.10 PM nowadays. And lasts until the next pray.
3-) The third pray <We call it Al Asr> which its time begins from about 03.30 PM nowadays till the next pray. <I told you we have a calender with the exact times of the prays as they measure it by the position of the sun in the sky and the length of the shadow on the ground>
4-) The fourth pray is the dusk pray <We call it Al Maghreb> which its time begins together with the sunset and lasts for about 01.20 hour till the  last pray.
5-) The last pray <we call it Al Ishaa'> which its time begins when there is no light in the sky after sunset for about 01.20 hour nowadays and lasts until midnight.

So, every pray has a latency period to do it during this period. But doing the pray at its beginning time at mosque is the best.

Are you saying you feel comfortable with the idea of the sacrifices that have to be made, or better yet, that somehow you will not feel as close to Allah despite the fact that He's around the rest of the year as well?

I feel no sacrifice because we are used to this.
I know Allah is with us always but in Ramadan when we pray a lot and fast by the order of Allah, so we do what he ordered us with full submission. So we feel his mercy and we feel he is much closer than any other time of the year.
Also our prophet <Peace be upon him and all the prophets> told us that when Ramadan comes, Devils are chained up, doors of the heaven are opened and doors of the hell are closed. And also he told us to show Allah the good inside us.

I really appreciate your taking the time to answer me.

And I really appreciate your friendship.

Be well and safe. 

[humbert]

If you pray at mosque, it takes about 10 min. But if at home, your decision, make it short or long. You can do it in about 5 min or more.

Let me be sure I understand you correctly, I'm a little confused. Assuming the same times as before, prayers (Ramadan or not) must be between 5:00 and 6:30am, the only difference being that during Ramadan, you can't eat after 5:00am. Does this mean you have to get up at [for example] 4:30am, eat something, and then go to the mosque? How far is the mosque from your house? Is it walking distance or must you take a bus, given that you don't have a car? Do you go to the mosque every morning to pray, or only during Ramadan?

In the dusk and evening prayers, did you say they take about 1:20 and not 5 to 10 minutes as the morning prayers? If so, why so long? Is the time of total darkness for the last prayer also determined by a public clock, or do you just look out the window? Finally, did I understand you correctly or must you pray until about midnight? Assuming that's the case and even knowing how committed you are, it must be rough sleeping just 4½ hours. Please clarify this for me, it may not be entirely correct but I just read again what I saved and that's the impression I'm under.

The rest of what you told me makes sense. It's just what I mentioned above that I'm confused about. Feel free to ask me to re-read something I may have missed in the details of the 5 prayers, their names and times -- that's saved to a text file.

Take care,
Humbert